What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

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GulliverFoyle
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

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DaN wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:12 pm
msp wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:35 am In short we are now grumpy old men yelling at clouds.
Yeah... I'm kinda uncomfortable with that self-image though, so I'm trying to look at it in a positive light: The fact that there are so many bands like this around is after all proof that the interest - the "scene" if you will - of this OLD music we all love more than life itself is still alive. Not having those clouds in the sky to occasionally yell at would feel excruciatingly lonely in the long run...
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Another lonely night, another no name town
it starts to look the same, it starts to bring me down
so many promises you knew I'd never keep
I'll make it up to you, baby, don't give up on me
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VictimeDelExil
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by VictimeDelExil »

bigfootkit wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:29 am
VictimeDelExil wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:29 pm Would have to say I pretty much 100% agree with what you had to say, I myself have pretty redundant music-listening habits, but I also do enjoy AOR/melodic rock, regular "classic rock", psych/blues rock, prog rock, and non-rock music such as classical, and outlaw country. I think it is good to listen to (in addition to early heavy metal) other genres of music as a musician, so that way you can hear different concepts than you would in your main genre, as well as developing a good sense of melody. A huge issue with a lot of "NWOTHM" for me is that it lacks good melodic content. And I'm not saying melodic as in full-blown pop rock or that awful "melodeath" stuff, but more like the incredible sense of melody that bands such as Madison, 220 Volt, Gotham City, Silver Mountain, Proud (I'm having a tendency of focusing on FWOSHM bands), and others had.
I think anyone who plays music should be looking outside of the styles they naturally gravitate towards because there's always something to learn from watching & listening to other musicians that you can apply to your own style. It can only help provide you with additional tools & ideas to express your ideas better.
Despite what i said in my earlier post there are still a few newish bands who've impressed me such as OWL (later renamed OVVL), STONE DAGGER, Sweden's NIGHT & the German band HEAT.
Going by your musical tastes Heat might be right up your street. Try this one for size:

Oh yeah this is quite good, doesn't sound too hipster-y like a lot of NWOTHM does. I'll check em out more, thanks.
Cochino wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:02 am I think it's almost impossible not to be derivative to some degree anymore (and not just in Metal), so it's mostly down to writing good tracks and not following a certain pattern to closely, like those bands coming out nowadays that aren't content with playing very within a certain style but they just go after one band and ape everything about it.
The problem is that the cultural landscape has changed too much. I don't think there's even a mainstream anymore, 'cause that involves flow and change and I'm not really feeling it. I just think there are bubbles of different sizes and everyone moves within the ones they choose.
It used to be that you just had the radio, the big music stores and MTV dictating what you were able to listen to, and when enough people weren't happy with that, they'd start their own bands and an undercurrent would start to develop until it broke out into the mainstream, and the cycle would start again. Nowadays people can pick and choose what they listen to, so you don't have that tension. There is no "underground resistance" anymore but just more niche markets.
The last true "revolutionary" musical movements that I can think of were Rap/Hip Hop and the Rave scene from the 90s, in that they were something really different and disruptive at the time. Everything I've heard since the turn of the century has basically been rehashes of older stuff with new production techniques. It feels that there's no more envelope to push.
You're absolutely right, originality is quite stagnant regardless of genre, pop music has pretty much sounded derivative of EDM and rap music for the past 20 years really. And again in the terms of more mainstream rock, you have those revivalist bands that just rip-off Led Zeppelin and so on. There's also quite a shift culturally, I've seen other people bring up that there hasn't really been any other time in history when things that were "retro" where in fashion - i.e. people seem to all obsess over some particular decade in history, when this more or less hasn't been the case in the past.
mordred wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:11 am A side note, and this applies not only to NWOTHM but all metal, sub genres have become prisons. The 80's weren't like that. Look at Overkill. They were a thrash band, but they wrote "Skull Krusher". A ten minute doom metal song. They didn't discard it, or start a side project to release a limited cassette, they just put it on their album. And the lord smiled and said it was metal!
VictimeDelExil wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:29 pm It's absolutely blasphemous to me that anyone would want to see Eternal Champion or (even worse) Visigoth over Cloven Hoof. :shock:
Just out of curiosity, have you seen all these three bands live recently? I totally get the appeal of seeing Cloven Hoof because of their classic material, but it's not 1989 anymore. Visigoth and Eternal Champion both do perform very well and I think it's very well deserved that they have become some of the more revered traditional metal bands of today.
Agree with your point about sub-genres being prisons, it's funny too because with "traditional" heavy metal, you have enough freedom to not necessarily be stuck with one particular sound, you could do a few more mid-tempo "doom" songs, and a few faster speed metal-ish songs, and still overall be Heavy Metal. But obviously most NWOTHM bands don't get this memo as they typically tend to fall in the more speed metal-ish category.
And yeah it's no surprise Cloven Hoof, like many older bands, aren't all that great live - I'm just saying musically... I think Eternal Champion and Visigoth are just absolute shit. It amazes me those bands are popular, especially Visigoth as they sonically sound like a metalcore band trying to play "classic metal".
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by Lord_Sauron »

I am a few days late from the opening post, but this is a topic that is of great interest for me. I have stated some of my opinions in another (recommendation) topic I have opened quite some time ago (and that is not being updated since most of my notes are on a laptop that needs repair):
viewtopic.php?t=8931

As in that topic, many of my opinions are similar to other users (especially bigfootkit), but I'll list them regardless of that.

So, let's start:

1. Extreme obedience to self-imposed rules, leading to lack of variety in sound
OK, this one has been discussed to death and is probably the single most cited reason why NWOTHM "sucks". I will simply quote what I have wrote in the other topic:
My personal taste aside (a lot of my favourite bands would be considered hard rock or even AOR by hardline "metal"-heads of post-thrash generation - which is my generation), I find it sad that there seems to be much less variety in modern "traditional" metal than it used to be. As one "Metal Archives" user wrote about the so-called NWOTHM: "[NWOTHM] is basically a narrow view of heavy/power metal as it sounded in the mid 80s. This has been true for nearly everything I've heard with the tag."

I find it quite sad, since nowadays it is much easier to listen to different bands and yet a lot of bands fit into what You have described as "those retro wannabes & outright imitators". I don't know if it is simply a lack of inspiration or fear of being rejected as "dad rock" bands by beforementioned hardliners if they incorporate some elements that are not considered "true metal" nowadays.

An indicative conversation I had with a very good friend of mine (who is also the only one that listens primarily to metal in our group of friends), who is slightly younger than me (26-27 years old at the time). He told me he considers early Judas Prieast to be "rock, not even hard rock, but just [classic] rock". I thought he was refering to Rocka Rolla and actually agreed with him, saying it "could be called 70s hard rock, but that I see his point". Turns out that he was refering to their EIGHTIES output (and I am not talking only Point of Entry or Turbo). From what I have heard from few other guys of the same generation, it seems that it is a common opinion.
When I see "NWOTHM", I can pretty much guess what it would sound for about 4 out of 5 bands. Although, it isn't actually that much about the style (de gustibus...), but the feeling I have that many of these bands play that style because it is expected from them as "traditional metal" bands and not because they don't want to implement other influences.

2. Lack of understanding what "traditional metal" actually means, leading both to lack of outside influences and to lack of appeal to fans of real early-80s heavy metal
Firstly, one note - I am NOT trying to force my opinion of what traditional metal is upon other people. I am quite aware that these opinions might vary from person to person. However, I still think there are some objective variables that should be taken into account when discussing "traditional metal".

What baffles me is that many people (especially those born in the late-80s and later, some with many years of listening to hard rock and metal music) seem to make the assumption "80s-influenced = traditional". Sorry, Death's "Scream Bloody Gore" and Mayhem's "Deathcrush" were released in 1987, Slayer and Kreator had 4 LPs in the 80s, Sodom and Destructiion 3 LPs, and hardcore punk was at its height at the time. It is generally accepted that a band can be classified as NWOTHM if it: a) has clean vocals; b) doesn't contain obvious influences from hardcore punk, hip-hop, alternative rock and other genres that were fused with metal and hard rock in 90s and later. This leads to speed (even melodic thrash), power and doom metal bands, which sound obviously mid/late-80s, being labelled as traditional metal.

I will again quote myself from the earlier topic:
Really, I am not oposed to bands playing heavy/speed metal or USPM or anything like that (I even enjoy some 80s bands whose style has been described as such), but find it a bit iritating when bands whose main influences are clearly albums such as Painkiller (a good album, btw) or late-80s epic metal bands, are being described as traditional early-80s/NWOBHM-like metal.
The word "traditional" can mean many thing, but in the context of metal music, it is usually used to describe NWOBHM and NWOBHM-sounding bands of the early-80s (and even late-70s), as well as those bands that could be classified as doom metal, but that sound similar to early (proto-)doom bands of 70s and early 80s. Although this might seem to be as restrictive as what I have stated in the first reason, the fact is that in the early-80s, heavy metal was not yet "codified" and the bands differed significanlty even within the same scene/country, not to mention between different countries. As other users have noted, these bands were not afraid to implement influences from blues, jazz, folk, prog rock, boogie rock, southern rock, etc, etc.

3. Singers sound too much alike
As much as many of us (especially those that have played an insturment at some stage of their lives and that at the same time suck at singing, me included) like to think otherwise, for most people it is the singer who is the most recognisable band member. Although I disagree with the opening post that "Vocalists sound too much like Bruce Dickinson half the time", I still think there is not enough variety in the singing styles of these frontmen. Also, it is extremely rare that I stumble upon a NWOTHM singer with instantly recognisable voice, while these used to be a must for almost every successful traditional heavy metal (and hard rock) band, few notable exceptions aside.

4. Focus on being able to play fast and not on actually writing good songs (NOTE: this doesn't apply ONLY to NWOTHM, but it affects NWOTHM)
Again, one disclaimer - I absolutely think that good (or at least competent) technical level of playing is a must (few really rare exceptions aside, haha). However, there is general focus, not only in NWOTHM, but in modern metal in general, to achieve the highest level of playing ability possible. As all people have limited time on their hands, this sometimes leads to musicians ignoring and not developing their song-writing ability. I know of A LOT of heavy metal and other rock guitarists (some of them personally) that are able to play faster than almost any early-80 heavy metal guitarist, but who managed (in the best case) to release few demos/"self-released albums" with very weak (but very technical) material and then needed to quit playing metal/rock music due to lack of commercial and critical success and now make their living as music teachers and backing musicians for generic pop/folk singers, and who haven't written a song of their own for a decade (not counting occasional 15-second guitar solos in pop and pop/folk songs).

5. Low expectations from the general local metal/rock community (NOTE: this doesn't apply ONLY to NWOTHM, but it affects NWOTHM)
The last (at least for now), but not the least, reason why I think NWOTHM is not reaching its full potential is general lack of expectations from the local public. Of course, this is something that I can only write from the perspective of local scene in my area, but it goes something like this (it will sound off-topic at first, but don't worry):
a) pop, folk, EDM, hip hop are the most popular types of music here, so there is general attitude that "we must support alternative scene at all cost".
b) This leads to anything not being clearly 2010s/2020s mainstream music being labelled as "alternative" and the term being used as a term of approval and not as a term of musical label. It leads to every local rock/metal/punk/etc band being suported by "fans" regardless of how terrible it is (and, trust me, I'll rather listen to a generic modern pop/hip hop artist than 95% of these bands, and I hate modern pop/hip hop).
c) As most of these "alternative" bands don't play metal, much less non-extreme metal and non-core genres, so any bands that sound at least a bit like traditional metal (including thrash, stoner, doom with clean vocals, even modern power metal) get praise from traditional metal fans in the area, leading to further lowering of already low standards.
d) As metal bands generally can't achieve real commercial success (earning enough money to make it a full-time job), these bands are satisfied by achieving their "local heroes" status and don't really do anything to improve their songwriting.
e) In the context of NWOTHM, this leads back to reason no.1 and the general lack of any variety or willingness to include other inluences in their music, partly due to fear of losing their "true metal" status
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bigfootkit
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

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VictimeDelExil wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:36 pm originality is quite stagnant regardless of genre, pop music has pretty much sounded derivative of EDM and rap music for the past 20 years really. And again in the terms of more mainstream rock, you have those revivalist bands that just rip-off Led Zeppelin and so on. There's also quite a shift culturally, I've seen other people bring up that there hasn't really been any other time in history when things that were "retro" where in fashion - i.e. people seem to all obsess over some particular decade in history, when this more or less hasn't been the case in the past.
Whilst what you say about nostalgia is true to a large extent, i think every generation has a tendency to look back on the era of their youth with rose tinted glasses, see it as a 'golden age' & yearn to relive it in some ways in their later life and it's likely been that way for as long as people have been making it to their middle age. And there have been times where people have looked back to earlier eras for cultural inspiration, like the 50's revivalism of the 70's (American Graffiti, Happy Days, Stray Cats etc) & how a lot of the 90s (anti) fashion & music looked back to the 70s for inspiration.
The big difference nowadays is the business of retro. It's now a far more established tried & true method of selling stuff to folks who identify with particular eras, whether it's using a particular song to flog cars to a certain demographic or packaging a few older bands together in order to sell out venues of a certain size, in the last 20/25 years this has become much more common practice across the world of business.
It's become commonplace to the point of laziness & i wonder what will happen to retro marketing in 20 years time when they attempt to stir up nostalgia for todays current 'culture gap' era, where there simply aren't any groundbreaking musical or cultural movements emerging.
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by fengisriprider »

Like with any genra, there are good bands and bad ones, then many many many mediocre bands. This hasn't changed over the years there are just far more people in the world there for more bands.

I like the following active bands from my local scene

Demon Bitch / White Magician
Locust Point
Cruthu
Anguish
Low Magic
Theandric

And the following active other countries scenes bands

Helvetets Port
Acero Letal
Emblem
Possessed Steel
Iron Griffin
Vultures Vengeance
Hemisfero
Asedio
Significant Point

These bands could meet the category of NWOTHM, they are interesting and great bands.
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by Warepire »

I'm in both camps, I like the style and idea, but have a lot of trouble with the execution.

I do follow some "NWOTHM" channels just so I can sort through everything and find the occasional "yeah, this is pretty good to me". I saw Night mentioned earlier and I have huge problems with their material before "Raft of the World" (which sounds fine but doesn't get me very excited). I think my best finds through those channels so far have been Argus and Sanhedrin.
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bigfootkit
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by bigfootkit »

Warepire wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:22 pm I saw Night mentioned earlier and I have huge problems with their material before "Raft of the World" (which sounds fine but doesn't get me very excited).
It was me who mentioned Night, but as i'm only familiar with 'Raft...' i can't comment on their earlier material. They came to mind because the OP mentioned he liked a melodic approach & although Night can be derivative they definitely have a skillful approach to melody, at least on that album.
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by Herkus Monte »

VictimeDelExil wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:29 pm I think it is good to listen to (in addition to early heavy metal) other genres of music as a musician, so that way you can hear different concepts than you would in your main genre, as well as developing a good sense of melody. A huge issue with a lot of "NWOTHM" for me is that it lacks good melodic content. And I'm not saying melodic as in full-blown pop rock or that awful "melodeath" stuff, but more like the incredible sense of melody that bands such as Madison, 220 Volt, Gotham City, Silver Mountain, Proud (I'm having a tendency of focusing on FWOSHM bands), and others had.
That would be my caveat as to that "wave", even if to a limited extent. Some NWOTHM bands tend to play fast, they are very "tight" in terms of performance, showing high skills, but when you have listened to their songs there is hardly anything that will stick in your mind for long.
In some particular way it is a continuation of what flower power/neo-power/whatever bands did in the late 90s and early 00s. Groups like Sonata Arctica, Dragonforce, Heavenly would back then focus on ultra-fast paced songs structures where keyboards and guitars raced neck and neck with each other, but in the end of the day the whole effort would sound somewhat shallow, to say the leat.
Needless to say, NWOTHM sounds way heavier and those bands would feel enraged at such a comparison. But the issue seems similar as an obligation to please the listener with something catchy gives way to songs being played fast and tight only for the sake of it.
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by DaN »

Convenience strikes! I was just told a local NWOTHM act is having a release show for their debut 7" tomorrow. I'm going full gonzo on this one - arms will be crossed, frowns will be worn, notes will be taken.
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

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DaN wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:38 am Convenience strikes! I was just told a local NWOTHM act is having a release show for their debut 7" tomorrow. I'm going full gonzo on this one - arms will be crossed, frowns will be worn, notes will be taken.
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

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DaN wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:38 am Convenience strikes! I was just told a local NWOTHM act is having a release show for their debut 7" tomorrow. I'm going full gonzo on this one - arms will be crossed, frowns will be worn, notes will be taken.
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by Razanez »

I have no issues with it. I am all in for more heavy metal and that's what matters.There is a lot of releases coming out these days, but going through them all by cover art, and listening to couple of seconds, it is not that bad. There is a lot of great stuff coming out, like Mamorlis - Sturdy as an Oak, Vórtize - ¡Tienes Que Luchar!, Ceres - Tyrant's Rise, from just from the recent ones. Every year there is always a bunch of new releases found their way to my collection.

But it has to be agreed, most of the new bands do many things wrong, in my opinion as a musician also! And most of the times the culprit is metronome. And I am not even joking! If the bands just PLAY their assess off as a band (like bands did in the early days), they would be much more interesting to listen to.
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by Keir »

I have no issues with NWOTHM.

That said I can't argue with most of the complaints here, especially the ones about there being so many and not having enough time to explore them all. There are lots of boring derivative NWOTHM bands but there are great ones as well. For me, more important than talent or even originality is the energy that comes from true passion for the music. I think a lot of newer bands have that, it's just different than it was 40 years ago.
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by VictimeDelExil »

Keir wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 3:53 pm I have no issues with NWOTHM.

That said I can't argue with most of the complaints here, especially the ones about there being so many and not having enough time to explore them all. There are lots of boring derivative NWOTHM bands but there are great ones as well. For me, more important than talent or even originality is the energy that comes from true passion for the music. I think a lot of newer bands have that, it's just different than it was 40 years ago.
Sorry for replying months-and-months later (not like that's too uncommon on forums these days, unfortunately) but what do you find to be the top recent NWOTHM bands? I'd love to explore it more honestly, but yeah for the reasons I complained about here - I can't really commit the time I use to explore 80s Metal to modern stuff.
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by Keir »

VictimeDelExil wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:15 amSorry for replying months-and-months later (not like that's too uncommon on forums these days, unfortunately) but what do you find to be the top recent NWOTHM bands? I'd love to explore it more honestly, but yeah for the reasons I complained about here - I can't really commit the time I use to explore 80s Metal to modern stuff.
No problem, and thanks for asking!

Here are some of my favorite NWOTHM releases from this year so far:
Doublegeddon - Geddon Dangerous
Sumerlands - Dreamkiller
Tension - Decay
Venator - Echoes From The Gutter
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