What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

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VictimeDelExil
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What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by VictimeDelExil »

Since my last topic went very well, I figured it was time to make another topic post that would likely get me ostracized on almost any other Metal forum.

So as plenty of you guys know, there is that whole "New Wave of Traditional Heavy Metal" label (I can't really call it a movement, especially since it seemed to have started in the early 2000s, far too long ago to really be a proper movement) for basically any modern band that remotely sounds like classic Heavy Metal. As well as that rather popular "NWOTHM Full Albums" promoter on YouTube who uploads all sorts of Heavy Metal, Speed Metal, and Power Metal style bands of modern times. I was curious to see, what do you guys think of "NWOTHM" overall? Because to be honest, I'm not too fond of most the bands I have heard. And I have my own reasons, however I'm curious to hear yours.

My reasons for not liking NWOTHM greatly varies upon bands, however I'd say the usual issues include the following:
  • Sounds too derivative of already existing bands. (I.E. all these "epic metal" bands that rip-off Manilla Road and Heavy Load, without being anywhere near as interesting as either band.)
  • Too oveproduced/polished in sound, like that Andy Sneap type of production that's very sterile, too much saturated gain in the guitar tone, etc.
  • Sounds more akin to mid-late 80s speed or power metal, rather than straight-forward heavy metal.
    No memorable songs (kinda has to due with a lot of these bands being very generic speed metal).
  • Vocalists sound too much like Bruce Dickinson half the time.
  • Bands tend to be more influenced by basic well-known NWOBHM bands, rarely ever see any bands taking influence from German, French, Swedish, Italian Heavy Metal bands.
Lastly, my big issue with NWOTHM, that isn't exactly with the bands, but also the fans - It seems people nowadays do not have the same standards they had with Heavy Metal bands back in the 80s. I can understand that one would be less judgemental with what has unfortunately become more of a niche style to play than it once was, but I very commonly see people have the thought process of "this is a modern band that sounds old and is OK, so therefore it's good". You can even see this in more mainstream rock, with people who like all these generic rock-revival bands like Greta Van Fleet (the Led Zeppelin copy-cat band).

And that's just a few generic issues I thought of off the top of my head. I'm also curious, as a musician myself who is trying to form a Heavy Metal band, what is it that you would like to see modern Heavy Metal bands do? I already have a foundation for the music and imagery developed, so I'm not desperate for ideas - I just am curious on what you guys would like to see that's different from most of these "NWOTHM" bands.

Also on a more light-hearted note: there are quite a few 2000s-present bands I do like, such as Helvetets Port (my favorite modern band by far), Tungsten Axe, Tyrann, Angel Sword, Enforcer (more speed metal, but still quite good), and my fellow Kentuckians, Blood Curse (excellent NWOBHM-influenced non-pretentious Doom Metal).
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by bigfootkit »

To be honest i'm pretty much clueless about what passes for modern Metal these days.Occasionally someone i know or a member here will recommend a band to me & i'll dutifully check them out, but the ones that grab me are few & far between.
I find it's the sheer amount of bands that exist nowadays that's most daunting, as you have to wade through an awful lot of generic garbage to find the occasional bright prospect, (though it does make it very satisfying when you do turn up something that excites you).
The problem i have with most modern bands is that they seem to only be influenced by Metal rather than having a grounding in or understanding of other styles of music, which seems to make the scope of their output very narrow. If you go back to any of the classic bands of the 70s or 80s they brought a greater understanding of other musical forms to their compositions & playing and incorporated those outside influences into their style giving them a more individual sound.
Sabbath & Priest are probably the archetypal Metal bands, but both emerged from the Progressive Blues boom of the late 60s, and the tonality & dynamics of the blues is all over their classic albums. Sabbath also had a great understanding of jazz & funk, and as a result the Ward/Butler rhythm section really swung. On youtube you can find the isolated rhythm tracks for many Sabbath tracks & it's incredible to really hear what they were playing. For a pair of pasty young guys from the Midlands they were incredibly funky.
Priest were able to take Joan Baez's wistful folk song 'Diamonds & Rust' & turn it into something completely different & even tackled a little reggae on 'The Rage'. They were thinking outside the box & bending unlikely elements to their will.
Lizzy were inspired by the twin harmony guitars of Southern Rock and traditional Irish folk, Maiden brought in their love of prog rock, the thrash bands stirred the speed of Punk into their NWoBHM soup & on and on.
Most of the current crop of bands seem bereft of ideas in comparison, and oh so fearful of breaking 'the rules' that they don't deviate from the formula which prevents them from finding their own individual sound.
Or maybe i'm just a grumpy old man who'll be forced to eat his words any day now by some young whippersnappers who'll kick my ass with their fresh new take on the music we love.
I sincerely hope so.
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by ujr_metal »

I don't listen too many of the so called NWOTHM bands, simply because I didn't liked what I've listened at all.
Generic sound, with bad singers, uninspired compositions, drinking from the same fountain and just beign a mere copy of some 80s band.

But I also think this whole movement is a kind of renovation, of bands and of the public as well.
A couple of years ago, I've been to a festival in the US and bands like Eternal Champion, Visigoth, Screamer were getting more attention from the crowd than bands like Destructor, Cloven Hoof or Sacred Few, wich makes no sense to me.
But for the youngest in the attendance, these are the bands they want too see the most in a festival like that, and as time goes by these bands Will become the headliners simply by attracting more audience.

About the NWOTHM youtube channel, I think Anderson who owns that channel, is doing an important work to help spread these new bands. I don't Follow nor visit the channel, but always that I want to listen to something new I heard or read about, it's always there on his channel.

And yes, there are bands after the 2000s that I like and listen to: Ranger, Stalker, Malediction and some others here from Brasil: Selvageria, Farscape, Flagelador, Sodomizer, just don't know if you can label all of then as NWOTHM.
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by DaN »

bigfootkit wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 2:12 am The problem i have with most modern bands is that they seem to only be influenced by Metal rather than having a grounding in or understanding of other styles of music, which seems to make the scope of their output very narrow. If you go back to any of the classic bands of the 70s or 80s they brought a greater understanding of other musical forms to their compositions & playing and incorporated those outside influences into their style giving them a more individual sound.
Sabbath & Priest are probably the archetypal Metal bands, but both emerged from the Progressive Blues boom of the late 60s, and the tonality & dynamics of the blues is all over their classic albums. Sabbath also had a great understanding of jazz & funk, and as a result the Ward/Butler rhythm section really swung. On youtube you can find the isolated rhythm tracks for many Sabbath tracks & it's incredible to really hear what they were playing. For a pair of pasty young guys from the Midlands they were incredibly funky.
Priest were able to take Joan Baez's wistful folk song 'Diamonds & Rust' & turn it into something completely different & even tackled a little reggae on 'The Rage'. They were thinking outside the box & bending unlikely elements to their will.
Lizzy were inspired by the twin harmony guitars of Southern Rock and traditional Irish folk, Maiden brought in their love of prog rock, the thrash bands stirred the speed of Punk into their NWoBHM soup & on and on.
Most of the current crop of bands seem bereft of ideas in comparison, and oh so fearful of breaking 'the rules' that they don't deviate from the formula which prevents them from finding their own individual sound.
This sums up my own experience with many of these bands as well. Some of them are REALLY talented and make albums full of great, classic HM riffs & tunes, but that's also the problem - there's just too few surprises inbetween, and I'm not talking about bloody opera or polka-breaks, just any sort of part/twist/turn/chord that's a bit unique or unexpected.

There's may exceptions I'm sure, I just don't seem to find the time to hunt them down myself - got too much old shit to listen to (Including everything I need to research and/or review for the site). Sometimes I'm hearing cool stuff "by mistake", i.e. at friends, parties etc.. I like some flawed, oddball newish stuff, like Realmbuilder and Black Magic SS, but I'm not sure they would count as NWOTHM?

And also HELVETETS PORT. Always.
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by Nightcrawler »

I have a different opinion than most others here as I´m really happy about this movement. I did not think like 15-20 years ago, that I´d ever buy like 10 new releases per year again. It was actually due to a topic here more than 10 years ago, where a few bands were mentioned here and labelled as crap and I checked them out and thought myself that they were fantastic, like Cauldron, Enforcer, Skull Fist and a couple of other bands. Of course in the meantime a lot of new bands appeared and the problem I have with most bands is that they do not even try to make something original. A lot of it therefore sounds good, but nothing more. But I guess it is a normal thing, that we all here can´t get that excited after we have listened to thousands of albums. There are some exceptions like for instance the first album of Borrowed Time, which is absolutely unique. Of course you can´t compare it to the 80s, where most bands consisted of real top musicians, but all in all I´m satisfied with the development of Metal....
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by VictimeDelExil »

bigfootkit wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 2:12 am To be honest i'm pretty much clueless about what passes for modern Metal these days.Occasionally someone i know or a member here will recommend a band to me & i'll dutifully check them out, but the ones that grab me are few & far between.
I find it's the sheer amount of bands that exist nowadays that's most daunting, as you have to wade through an awful lot of generic garbage to find the occasional bright prospect, (though it does make it very satisfying when you do turn up something that excites you).
The problem i have with most modern bands is that they seem to only be influenced by Metal rather than having a grounding in or understanding of other styles of music, which seems to make the scope of their output very narrow. If you go back to any of the classic bands of the 70s or 80s they brought a greater understanding of other musical forms to their compositions & playing and incorporated those outside influences into their style giving them a more individual sound.
Sabbath & Priest are probably the archetypal Metal bands, but both emerged from the Progressive Blues boom of the late 60s, and the tonality & dynamics of the blues is all over their classic albums. Sabbath also had a great understanding of jazz & funk, and as a result the Ward/Butler rhythm section really swung. On youtube you can find the isolated rhythm tracks for many Sabbath tracks & it's incredible to really hear what they were playing. For a pair of pasty young guys from the Midlands they were incredibly funky.
Priest were able to take Joan Baez's wistful folk song 'Diamonds & Rust' & turn it into something completely different & even tackled a little reggae on 'The Rage'. They were thinking outside the box & bending unlikely elements to their will.
Lizzy were inspired by the twin harmony guitars of Southern Rock and traditional Irish folk, Maiden brought in their love of prog rock, the thrash bands stirred the speed of Punk into their NWoBHM soup & on and on.
Most of the current crop of bands seem bereft of ideas in comparison, and oh so fearful of breaking 'the rules' that they don't deviate from the formula which prevents them from finding their own individual sound.
Or maybe i'm just a grumpy old man who'll be forced to eat his words any day now by some young whippersnappers who'll kick my ass with their fresh new take on the music we love.
I sincerely hope so.
Would have to say I pretty much 100% agree with what you had to say, I myself have pretty redundant music-listening habits, but I also do enjoy AOR/melodic rock, regular "classic rock", psych/blues rock, prog rock, and non-rock music such as classical, and outlaw country. I think it is good to listen to (in addition to early heavy metal) other genres of music as a musician, so that way you can hear different concepts than you would in your main genre, as well as developing a good sense of melody. A huge issue with a lot of "NWOTHM" for me is that it lacks good melodic content. And I'm not saying melodic as in full-blown pop rock or that awful "melodeath" stuff, but more like the incredible sense of melody that bands such as Madison, 220 Volt, Gotham City, Silver Mountain, Proud (I'm having a tendency of focusing on FWOSHM bands), and others had.
ujr_metal wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:12 pm I don't listen too many of the so called NWOTHM bands, simply because I didn't liked what I've listened at all.
Generic sound, with bad singers, uninspired compositions, drinking from the same fountain and just beign a mere copy of some 80s band.

But I also think this whole movement is a kind of renovation, of bands and of the public as well.
A couple of years ago, I've been to a festival in the US and bands like Eternal Champion, Visigoth, Screamer were getting more attention from the crowd than bands like Destructor, Cloven Hoof or Sacred Few, wich makes no sense to me.
But for the youngest in the attendance, these are the bands they want too see the most in a festival like that, and as time goes by these bands Will become the headliners simply by attracting more audience.

About the NWOTHM youtube channel, I think Anderson who owns that channel, is doing an important work to help spread these new bands. I don't Follow nor visit the channel, but always that I want to listen to something new I heard or read about, it's always there on his channel.

And yes, there are bands after the 2000s that I like and listen to: Ranger, Stalker, Malediction and some others here from Brasil: Selvageria, Farscape, Flagelador, Sodomizer, just don't know if you can label all of then as NWOTHM.
It's absolutely blasphemous to me that anyone would want to see Eternal Champion or (even worse) Visigoth over Cloven Hoof. :shock:
Again, I do agree with your points. I think the guy who runs NWOTHM Full Albums definitely is doing a good job, and when I have material out I'd definitely send it to him to promote (AFAIK that's how it works) since he has a good audience on his channel.
DaN wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:26 pm There's may exceptions I'm sure, I just don't seem to find the time to hunt them down myself - got too much old shit to listen to (Including everything I need to research and/or review for the site). Sometimes I'm hearing cool stuff "by mistake", i.e. at friends, parties etc.. I like some flawed, oddball newish stuff, like Realmbuilder and Black Magic SS, but I'm not sure they would count as NWOTHM?

And also HELVETETS PORT. Always.
I definitely think that besides having genuinely good musicianship (you can't be "bad on purpose" and expect to sound good) there has to be a decent amount of "quirkiness" to a band's sound to make them enjoyable and unique in their own sense. Two bands I forgot to mention that are flawed but enjoyable at the same time are Demon Bitch and GRAVEDANGER...
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

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VictimeDelExil wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:29 pm Would have to say I pretty much 100% agree with what you had to say, I myself have pretty redundant music-listening habits, but I also do enjoy AOR/melodic rock, regular "classic rock", psych/blues rock, prog rock, and non-rock music such as classical, and outlaw country. I think it is good to listen to (in addition to early heavy metal) other genres of music as a musician, so that way you can hear different concepts than you would in your main genre, as well as developing a good sense of melody. A huge issue with a lot of "NWOTHM" for me is that it lacks good melodic content. And I'm not saying melodic as in full-blown pop rock or that awful "melodeath" stuff, but more like the incredible sense of melody that bands such as Madison, 220 Volt, Gotham City, Silver Mountain, Proud (I'm having a tendency of focusing on FWOSHM bands), and others had.
I think anyone who plays music should be looking outside of the styles they naturally gravitate towards because there's always something to learn from watching & listening to other musicians that you can apply to your own style. It can only help provide you with additional tools & ideas to express your ideas better.
Despite what i said in my earlier post there are still a few newish bands who've impressed me such as OWL (later renamed OVVL), STONE DAGGER, Sweden's NIGHT & the German band HEAT.
Going by your musical tastes Heat might be right up your street. Try this one for size:

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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by Cochino »

I think it's almost impossible not to be derivative to some degree anymore (and not just in Metal), so it's mostly down to writing good tracks and not following a certain pattern to closely, like those bands coming out nowadays that aren't content with playing very within a certain style but they just go after one band and ape everything about it.
The problem is that the cultural landscape has changed too much. I don't think there's even a mainstream anymore, 'cause that involves flow and change and I'm not really feeling it. I just think there are bubbles of different sizes and everyone moves within the ones they choose.
It used to be that you just had the radio, the big music stores and MTV dictating what you were able to listen to, and when enough people weren't happy with that, they'd start their own bands and an undercurrent would start to develop until it broke out into the mainstream, and the cycle would start again. Nowadays people can pick and choose what they listen to, so you don't have that tension. There is no "underground resistance" anymore but just more niche markets.
The last true "revolutionary" musical movements that I can think of were Rap/Hip Hop and the Rave scene from the 90s, in that they were something really different and disruptive at the time. Everything I've heard since the turn of the century has basically been rehashes of older stuff with new production techniques. It feels that there's no more envelope to push.
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by mordred »

Mainly two things.

1) It is essentially a "retro" scene and thus limited in scope and potential. I know there are exceptions, but the vast majority of bands are inspired by old school metal, they want to play old school metal and they wear their influences on their sleeves. Very few will have any original ideas or find a signature sound of their own. There is no way to top "Don't Break the Oath", "Bonded by Blood", "The Number of the Beast", "Epicus Doomicus Metallicus", "Hail to England", or whatever you're aiming at, by taking inspiration from it and try to make something that essentially sounds just like it. You might do something good, but not the next classic. A retro movement is thus limited from the get go.

And yes, the traditional metal scene brought this upon itself. To be perfectly fair, one of the last truly original albums that sprang out of the 80's metal movement was Pantera's "Cowboys From Hell". And an awful lot of traditional metal fans didn't like that at all. Evolution is necessary to create new noteworthy landmarks, but evolution is also bound to eventually go somewhere you don't like. That's when you become a geezer and a perfect target for an eventual retro movement. :D

2) It's become saturated to a ridiculous degree. There's no way to even hear nearly everything. If I'll hear another NWOBHM inspired band with speed metal edge I'll choke. They all sound like Enforcer to me, or worse, they sound derivative of Enforcer! Now, I do love Enforcer. They've had a good progression over their career, and when they came out with their (admittedly retro) sound in 2006-07, it was something I felt I needed in my life. After ten years and 100 similar bands, I was way past needing more of that.

In conclusion, there are some great and even original bands associated with the umbrella term, but as a whole the "movement" has failed to establish a distinguished sound for itself and become more than a retro movement. On the other hand, I am glad it's still "a thing". When NWOTHM became a term around 2008-09, I never believed it would last nearly as long as it has.

A side note, and this applies not only to NWOTHM but all metal, sub genres have become prisons. The 80's weren't like that. Look at Overkill. They were a thrash band, but they wrote "Skull Krusher". A ten minute doom metal song. They didn't discard it, or start a side project to release a limited cassette, they just put it on their album. And the lord smiled and said it was metal!
VictimeDelExil wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:29 pm It's absolutely blasphemous to me that anyone would want to see Eternal Champion or (even worse) Visigoth over Cloven Hoof. :shock:
Just out of curiosity, have you seen all these three bands live recently? I totally get the appeal of seeing Cloven Hoof because of their classic material, but it's not 1989 anymore. Visigoth and Eternal Champion both do perform very well and I think it's very well deserved that they have become some of the more revered traditional metal bands of today.
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by ujr_metal »

mordred wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:11 am Just out of curiosity, have you seen all these three bands live recently? I totally get the appeal of seeing Cloven Hoof because of their classic material, but it's not 1989 anymore. Visigoth and Eternal Champion both do perform very well and I think it's very well deserved that they have become some of the more revered traditional metal bands of today.
Yes, saw them in 2018.
Yes, it sure is not 1989, but beign from South america I never had a chance to see many of the bands I grew up listening! So it's always great to finally have a chance to see them, even with just 1 original member and not releasing music as good as they used to do back in the day.
What I meant in my comment was the importance of these new bands to the new generation!
While me in my 40s, was giving the main attention to those bands I grew listening to, it seems the young ones have the same relation with these new bands, specially Eternal Champion and Visigoth, as I understand are 2 of the biggest names of the NWOTHM.
As times goes by, those bands are getting more attention from festival promoters, and more time to play as well, not just the opening slots! Its a renovation, like them or not they came to stay!
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by Khnud »

My issues with the genre in general is that there's just way too much of it. Too many bands, all sounding quite similar. Like mordred said, there's simply no way to listen to them all and it takes way too much time to sort out the good ones (like Eternal Champion, Visigoth, Smoulder etc) from all the derivative crap.
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by msp »

My main issue is that in 2022 people are dressing and are sporting moustache like MANIA band members on the back of the Wizard Of Lost Kingdom EP.

A lot of the newer band write nice and pleasant material. Like the first HITTMAN album all perfectly adequate. A reasonable 6/10 for the most part but never really going to change my world. But I suppose on the flip side for a 15-16 year old this might be as golden age of discovery of metal?

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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

Post by mordred »

msp wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:35 am My main issue is that in 2022 people are dressing and are sporting moustache like MANIA band members on the back of the Wizard Of Lost Kingdom EP.
Quite elegantly put! :D
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

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msp wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:35 am In short we are now grumpy old men yelling at clouds.
Yeah... I'm kinda uncomfortable with that self-image though, so I'm trying to look at it in a positive light: The fact that there are so many bands like this around is after all proof that the interest - the "scene" if you will - of this OLD music we all love more than life itself is still alive. Not having those clouds in the sky to occasionally yell at would feel excruciatingly lonely in the long run...
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Re: What are your issues with "NWOTHM"?

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mordred wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:11 am sub genres have become prisons. The 80's weren't like that. Look at Overkill. They were a thrash band, but they wrote "Skull Krusher". A ten minute doom metal song. They didn't discard it, or start a side project to release a limited cassette, they just put it on their album. And the lord smiled and said it was metal!
Yup, and doing so gave them confidence that they had a little wiggle-room to occasionally deviate from their established blueprint when the songs were best served by taking them in slightly different directions. They didn't have to worry about being abandoned by their core audience as long as they were writing quality songs.
An even better example is Voivod who could have made War & Pain over & over again but instead went their own way and are now 4 decades deep into a career that has never stood still musically, yet they managed to take their audience with them by always looking for different ways to be Voivod. As a fan i totally respect them for that & though i won't always be into what they do, i will always give a new album by them a listen because they never stopped making quality fearless music.
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