"The New Heavy Metal Movement"...

New bands, new releases, new metallic events, reissues, post-millenia-Metal in general...
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Nathaniel
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Re: "The New Heavy Metal Movement"...

Post by Nathaniel »

Bane wrote:
FuneralCircle wrote:... Or whatever the fuck it's called. Am I the only one who finds this shit to be extremely lame? Bands like HOLY GRAIL, WHITE WIZZARD, CAULDRON, ENFORCER, and SKULL FIST I think suck tremendous amounts of arse, all do essentially the same thing, dress up like pretty boy morons and have cliched song names like "Here's the Storm", "Tonight is the Night", and "Too Fast to Kill" or some shit. What the fuck happened? I guess that's what we get when a shite band like Cauldron jump onto Earache, you have a bunch of clones that somehow manage to sound worse.

The problem is how many people don't really think these bands are bullshit, but think they're up there with newer bands like Portrait, Atlantean Kodex, Twisted Tower Dire... I just needed to get this shit off my chest, been meaning to say something about this "movement" for far too long.

Thoughts?!
For one, Enforcer have been around for as long as Cauldron so the don't fit into the whole "clone" equation. I also wouldn't put them in the same category as White Wizzard and the rest of the bands you mentioned. I find them pretty damn enjoyable and not as, say, limp-wristed as some of the others.

The long and short of it is, why shouldn't bands like Enforcer, Skull Fist etc play traditional metal festivals like Up The Hammers? They play traditional metal. Granted, not to everyone's liking, but there are plenty of people who like them and like it or not the decision lies with the organisers in the end. Sure, there are other bands I would rather see play, but I have long since stopped pointing fingers at bands I don't like and saying they aren't deserving of a place on the line-up... because who the hell am I to say that?? My opinion holds no weight when it comes to dictating who is or isn't entitled to play a gig or festival.

Also, cliched song titles don't grind on me at all. Heavy metal is rampant with cliches, whether it's in song titles, lyrical content or the moves bands perform on stage. How many Doom bands can you name who sing about the occult, funerals, Satan, wizards (!!) and so on?? It's nigh on impossible to be original in Heavy metal these days. I say: GOOD! Bands ought to spend less time trying to reinvent the wheel and more time playing music that they're passionate about.

Which brings me back to your post. Those bands you mentioned mightn't be to your/our liking but who are we to say whether or not they're passionate about what they do? Maybe I'm getting old or something, but I'm growing tired of all the negativity in the underground scene. I'm not suggesting people start biting their lips and not speaking their mind for one second - I will always speak my mind - but there are various things in the underground scene that, for the want of a better phrase, have been getting on my tits lately.

These kind of threads being one of those things. We can sit infront of our computers and moan about how these signed bands are soulless and undeserving of their success and yada yada yada, OR... we can start threads about the bands we actually like, the bands we want to support and see succeed.

I'm rambling and I'm not even sure if any of that makes sense, but I have 3 more hours in work until I can have a beer and I have to waste it doing something :)

- Barry
Hey Barry, I completely agree with your opinion here. It feels good to meet people on the same wave length. What a loss of time all these complaints about bands people dislike or something. In the end what counts is what the music makes you feel
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Post by Witchkiller »

Good lp (to me) = buy

Bad lp (to me again) = pass

The rest of the stuff "who's true ,who ain't ,who's a metalhead ,who makes money" etc etc............... couldn't give no fuck. You guys go blah blah and question the sincerity of one band or another goin' "oh ,no ,they don't have the flame of the 80ies" but you never question just how many of the goooodz of the 80ies were around just 'cause the whole thing was the "in" thing at that time.......................... And most of you guys are 30 less smth or 30 more smth years old. I bet my ass that if you would hear the "Bite The Bullet" lp for instance back when you were 15 years old (time machine needed) you'd rank it a lil' less than Balls To The Wall..............
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FuneralCircle
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Post by FuneralCircle »

Guess I should have specified more that I think it's important that I think these guys suck and all SOUND like each other more than I don't like their clothes and they all LOOK like each other... :lol:
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Black Axe
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Post by Black Axe »

As long as people don't start bothering me with these bands as soon as I mention I listen to heavy metal, I don't care how horrid and financially aimed they are. I have managed to steer clear of most of these bands.
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Metalipeiklo
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Post by Metalipeiklo »

Thanks ENFORCER for bringing the best new Heavy Metal album ("Diamonds") for a long time.

What a meaningless debate by the way. There's a good scene in Europe these days with plenty of festivals (too many good ones to chose between honestly) and even if 18 bands out of 20 are less interesting, there's still two good bands to go see, buy records from, and talk about.

Things were far more boring 10-15 years ago, when far less happened (in terms of gigs in Scandinavia at least). Thank the new Heavy Metal wave for changing that.
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Post by MEXDefenderOfSteel »

Metalipeiklo wrote:Thanks ENFORCER for bringing the best new Heavy Metal album ("Diamonds") for a long time.
i think the debut was way more powerful and ballsy...
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Post by DaN »

Just came back from a short vacation and noticed how much this thread had grown. Great to see, coz 1. for once it didn't totally derail into flakey namecalling and 2. I think it's an interesting subject.

About ENFORCER and such...: apart from being a great classic HM band they're very honest about them wanting to become huge and rule the fuckin' world - EXACTLY like 99% of all them obscure 80's HM bands back in the day. I you ask me, lack of megalomania is an annoying flaw in many of these new "old-school" acts - it's like they'd rather be the new CRASS than the new IRON MAIDEN :(
I'm sure bands like LORD RÜYR, HELL, PAGAN ALTAR, SLAUTER XTROYES etc would never had thought twice about getting a major label deal, good management, world tours and major media coverage back in the days...
Sammi Curr wrote:Also, I know a lot of people hate Helvetets Port, but I think they only LOOK like a band that would suck. Their songs are awesome and actually not all that predictable in terms of the riff progressions. The ideas actually sound very fresh to me and I very much enjoy the "sitting on the couch with a 30 pack and jamming other metal albums" production on the full length. I know some will completely disagree, but oh well.
100% dead-on. If anything, HELVETETS PORT proves that you can be both super-conservative and totally original at the same time. Probably my fave band of the NNWOCHM.
Professor Black wrote:Does the band write good songs that I can enjoy in the moment? Do I enjoy humming and singing parts of them in my head after the fact? Is there a drum pattern that seems to lock in with my mood? Do the drums have a natural sound? Are there guitar solos? Do the guitar solos enter in ways that I find dramatic? How do the rhythm guitars and drums interact musically? Are they really locked in? Does the singer project a certain character or persona based on the narrative trajectory of the lyrics, rather than keeping everything kind of similar throughout? Does (s)he maybe hang on a certain word, or give a little ad lib here and there, in a way that helps keep my attention? Can I hear the bass guitar, and is it helping to drive the song? Are there any subtle flourishes of the bass to add some tension to the riffs, particularly around points of transitions? Is the guitar tone suitably heavy for the band's overall style of riffing, without being overpowering? Does the song have a good chorus? Is it arranged well enough to have a beginning, middle, and ending? Are the transitions between the parts confident and sensible? If there's any humor or profanity in the lyrics, is it appropriate? Am I comfortable with the way sex and violence are portrayed? Do the lyrics contribute to the musical atmosphere? Is the imagery familiar enough, or exotic enough? Regardless of whether I have heard other bands that sound like this, what makes this band unique? Does the music sound spontaneous? Do the musicians sound prepared? Does the production contribute to the atmosphere of the songs? Does it allow them the right amount of space and detail? Do I want to play the album again now? Later today? Tomorrow? Does the music evoke any visual images, and are they cool? Excellent? Exhilarating? If I never heard this song again, could I remember any of it forever?

That kind of stuff and whether it's on Earache are my main criteria.
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Oliver/KIT
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Post by Oliver/KIT »

Apart from the HP part (I simply cannot get into their stuff) I totally agree with you Dan.
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FuneralCircle
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Post by FuneralCircle »

DaN wrote: I'm sure bands like LORD RÜYR, HELL, PAGAN ALTAR, SLAUTER XTROYES etc would never had thought twice about getting a major label deal, good management, world tours and major media coverage back in the days...
Sorry, I think this is very irrelevant. I'm sure bands would love to have this opportunity, but that's not what makes the music good to me. Bands that seem to struggle more put it much more music, since they know that they are making music for Metalheads, and don't have to tone it down so much. So whether or not they made it, I think it's obvious what situation a band needs to be in in order to put out the most inspired output. Or is it just a coincidence the first (or earlier) albums by a band are usually the most original, interesting, classic, etc.?

Sorry to everyone who likes ENFORCER here, but they are too mild for me. They are too status-quo, and fuck it - Be it metal or not, I'm sick of hearing the same kind of shit done over and over and over again, and I don't care how "passionate" people claim them to be or they themselves claim to me. Passion for Metal to me is to respect the music enough not to render it dull.

So, I guess if people like this, then that's fine - To each their own and that is a great thing. But for me, these bands leave so much to be desired, and their popularity simply explodes, which I find to be lame. So what if I prefer the underground and the culture that comes with it as opposed to being happy for bands that make it? That doesn't mean Metal is becoming more like "Crass" or "Discharge" or this band or that punk band, times have changed and bands are in a different situation now than in the 80s.

So be it! - Let ENFORCER be the new heroes of heavy metal - I know what bands I'll still be listening to, and they won't have ribbons on their arms and sound like the 800th "Piece Of Mind" album.
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Post by pzman »

FuneralCircle, i think the only thing you should've posted is: ENFORCER SUCKS!. End of discussion. :)
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Post by Dodens Grav »

FuneralCircle wrote:I think it's obvious what situation a band needs to be in in order to put out the most inspired output. Or is it just a coincidence the first (or earlier) albums by a band are usually the most original, interesting, classic, etc.?
I think Dan's point was that no matter whether or not a band actually 'made' it, some who did make it didn't have to compromise, and a lot who didn't make it deliberately tried to appeal to a wider audience in an attempt to make it, and in all honesty I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the bands we both love fall in that latter category. In other words, I really don't think it necessarily matters what label a band is on; generally, the band's music determines what label signs them, the label doesn't determine the band's music. It's all about the individual players in the band. Bigger labels don't have magical properties that change people.

As far as earlier work tending to be a band's most creative, original, etc., there are so many reasons to account for that that I hardly see where a label would even fit in. Most people only tend to have one great vision in their lives, so it would follow that that first release contains the purest distillation of that great vision, and later albums tend to be a rehash of that vision or an abortive attempt to create something equally great that utterly fails. So I guess I would have to say that it is more often than not a coincidence that a band's earlier work is more interesting than their later work, not because they signed to a bigger label in between the 'earlier' and 'later'.
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Post by FuneralCircle »

pzman wrote:FuneralCircle, i think the only thing you should've posted is: ENFORCER SUCKS!. End of discussion. :)
Not at all, because I actually think ENFORCER are tons better than bands like CAULDRON and SKULLFIST!!!!

Do I not like them much? Yes. Do I not like their music, and is that the most important factor to me? YES. And I've made that clear many times. If people think that I don't like them because of other reasons which are at the forefront other than the fact I think they're boring and uninspired, then fuck it. The main focus of this discussion is mainly to discuss why I personally think these bands are so damn uninspired. You can agree or disagree, and that's fine by me! I like discussion and debate as long as it is civil and I don't think I've been vehement towards anyone or vise-versa.

To be honest Dodens I though Dan was thinking Heavy Metal bands were adopting a more "DIY" attitude and his comparison to Crass made that certainly evident (to me at least, but then again I'm not reading the posts in extremely careful detail admittedly). Seriously though, for the most part a band singing to a bigger label to me does impact their sound. Maybe not at first, but it does overall. For ENFORCER, it's irrelevant because I never found them interesting to begin with!

Labels may not be "magical", but they are certainly run by someone, and I'm certain there's an exchange of ideas between the label and the band that usually leads to some amalgamation or compromise of ideals, thus why a band usually tends to end up different while on a label (maybe not at first, but it happens...!) ENFORCER, I don't know, I just don't think they're that good. And Olof being true or not or how many vinyls he owns doesn't really mean much to me. What he's doing, the decision he and his band makes, the label he associates with, and most importantly, the sound he wants for his band are way more important factors than the fact that he may be true.

Creativity, originality, etc. are not decided by a band's desire to sign to a label or not, or influenced by a label, that wasn't exactly my point and I'm sorry if I didn't make myself totally clear. What I meant to say is that usually when a band ends up on a label there are some artistic elements that are usually added or extracted from the band due to it, even if it is an underground label. I was speaking moreso of the power of influence and exchange of ideas rather than labels acting exclusively negatively on influencing a band. With ENFORCER, I never thought they were really anything special to begin with, and if I actually saw them on a smaller label instead of getting their stuff released by Earache, then I would certainly agree that maybe they are very passionate and would certainly stop at the fact that I find them boring and unappealing.

That's my two cents so far!
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Post by The_Elite »

FuneralCircle wrote:I was speaking moreso of the power of influence and exchange of ideas rather than labels acting exclusively negatively on influencing a band. With ENFORCER, I never thought they were really anything special to begin with, and if I actually saw them on a smaller label instead of getting their stuff released by Earache, then I would certainly agree that maybe they are very passionate and would certainly stop at the fact that I find them boring and unappealing.
So your 'two cents' is essentially you don't like Enforcer musically- that's fine. Leave it there, becasue the rest of your argument is on very shaky ground.

You then say if they were on a smaller label that'd be ok... they're on Heavy Artillery NOT Earache- a label smaller and with fewer releases than your bands label Miskatonic. You think Earache had any input- the album was recorded before any licensing deal was even signed...

I've worked for labels (both non-metal and metal) for a long time- and it makes me laugh that there's this underground conspiracy theory mentality that seems to think labels change a bands sound. Is your band going to try and change it's sound to fit in with Rich Walkers underground ideals???- of course it isn't, so if that isn't how it works in the 'underground' why would that work anywhere else. It's a band that chooses to change through their own free will rather than through any label influence.

I also think the internet seems to have blown the idea of a band 'making it' out of all proportion, you think Enforcer have sold more than a couple of thousand cds at a push??? Just because you hear about them and see them everywhere doesn't automatically equate with 'success'.
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Post by Bane »

FuneralCircle wrote: Bands that seem to struggle more put it much more music, since they know that they are making music for Metalheads, and don't have to tone it down so much.
Struggle? Mate, this isn't 1960's Birmingham. By using the word "struggle" you're implying every unsigned band is in some sort of dire straits. They're raiding the penny jar just to get some money together to record a demo, or they're re-mortgaging their house to pay for flights to play infront of 50 people in a foreign country. Not every unsigned band are Anvil!! Some unsigned bands can do things quite comfortably, some cannot. The same goes for signed bands. If you think that the majority of bands signed to Earache are making some sort of living off the label, you are sorely wrong.

You can dislike whatever band you want but you can't make such ridiculous blanket statements like how unsigned bands play more passionately than if they were signed, or that unsigned bands play for Metalheads whilst signed bands play for their labels. That's complete and utter bullshit. The_Elite is 100% right - the underground "conspiracy" that labels and/or some sort of money injection ruin a band is laughable.

I have a very good friend called Alan. His band, Primordial, are signed to Metal Blade and they are one of the bigger bands on the roster. They sell tens of thousands of albums, they get their studio time, tours etc paid for them. Everything, in fact. Now listen to their music - you can't tell me for one second that they are playing it for anyone other than their fans. It's some of the most passionate, inspiring music you will hear. Anyone who likes the band will say the same. And guess what? 4/5 of the band members still work day jobs. They still struggle through daily life just like everyone else.
I think it's obvious what situation a band needs to be in in order to put out the most inspired output. Or is it just a coincidence the first (or earlier) albums by a band are usually the most original, interesting, classic, etc.?
The same argument can be applied to almost every band, regardless of whether they're signed. There are many arguments against why a bands first/earlier albums tend to be their best and I think that discussion warrants a thread of its own. Suffice to say, the "labels sucking the life out of bands" explanation is only one of those many arguments. Anyway, I'm going back to my Primordial example. Any fan of the band will tell you that their most recent albums out of a discography of 7/8 is some of the most, if not THE most, inspired stuff they have done. "Coffin Ships" anyone?? All while signed to a major label.
Labels may not be "magical", but they are certainly run by someone, and I'm certain there's an exchange of ideas between the label and the band that usually leads to some amalgamation or compromise of ideals, thus why a band usually tends to end up different while on a label (maybe not at first, but it happens...!)
How certain are you?? I don't think you're certain at all. It probably happens with the odd label, and with certain bands, but once again you can't make such a sweeping statement. Take it from someone who is extremely good friends with several label owners and several bands (on labels varying from the underground to the major) - you're wrong. If you're going to make such statements please give us some real world examples!
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Black Axe
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Post by Black Axe »

First albums are usually the best because the musicians have no idea what they're doing, they just wrote what ever they came up with along the way. After that first album they start thinking and their minds get clouded with 'what should we do to prolong the succes/get better results' thought processes and ruin it. This might be slightly forced upon a band by the label wanting a follow-up soon, or wanting more succes after a disappointing debut. But it's usually due to the bands own stupid mistake deciding to think about what they're doing.

Deciding to play X genre or similar to Y metal band usually gets less exciting results than playing whatever with input from the most musical and diverse members. Though overal chances are bigger they'll fuck it up and sound horrible, the probability of a 11/10 result increases if it succeeds.
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