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Glockose wrote: Thanks

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d ... legybasket

Yep, that's the winner! That's the second Paradoxx copy he's won during the last month. He won the autographed one too.

Thats really nuts
Is this the guy who bought the yellow Avatar for $$$$$$

nightsblood wrote:Then again, Paradoxx has the hype; everyone knows the 'only 50 copies escaped the pressing plant' legend, and it's been known even to moderate collectors for ages.

There are only 50 copies of Paradoxx and that is not a legend, i have confirmed it over the years with ex-members and friends of the band.

In my opinion Paradoxx is one of the best private U.S. Metal releases. And since it is one of the rarest U.S. Metal vinyls, it is not "wrong" for it to fetch high prices.

But (in my opinion again) $3,000 for a vinyl record is extremely high, even for one of the rarest U.S. Metal. I guess that now that there are collectors between the age of 40 to 50, we will see high prices even more frequently.

Strange how many copies of Paradoxx are in the wild if it is actually 50 copies. There have been a lot of Paradoxx sold in the last 10 years or so (hell at least 2 on Amazon.com) but only a few Militia etc that had a bigger pressing.

Were all the copies the band didn't take destroyed? Some could have been taken by people from the pressing plant or record company.

perishinflames wrote:Strange how many copies of Paradoxx are in the wild if it is actually 50 copies. There have been a lot of Paradoxx sold in the last 10 years or so (hell at least 2 on Amazon.com) but only a few Militia etc that had a bigger pressing.

Were all the copies the band didn't take destroyed? Some could have been taken by people from the pressing plant or record company.

Some of the copies are sold more than once. I mean that some of the Ebay auctions at popsike are of the same record.

This goes for many rare records that are sold mainly through Ebay. When a copy could be bought in the '90s for less than $800, it is logical to be resold now for double or triple the price.

And most of the copies that were sold back then (to family and friends) were preserved by their owners because they already knew from the band that there were very few to begin with.

hmmm, don't know about the sales apart from Ebay, but I can't imagine that those people who put those auctions on Ebay were also the winners from the previous auctions. If I recall right, the sellers were mostly from the Chicago area, and I thought the winners of the previous auctions were mainly from Europe. But who knows?

Nightcrawler wrote:hmmm, don't know about the sales apart from Ebay, but I can't imagine that those people who put those auctions on Ebay were also the winners from the previous auctions. If I recall right, the sellers were mostly from the Chicago area, and I thought the winners of the previous auctions were mainly from Europe. But who knows?

i was not talking about the last 2 auctions of Paradoxx, those were by a band member's son and another owener from Chicago.

But here is an example, Jim Cranford bought over the years many rare records from Ebay (i know, he outbid me in many records). After many years he sold his collection mainly through Ebay. That means that some of his rarities were sold through Ebay twice. And this is only one example.

"Legends" apply until they will fall. The 50 Paradoxx copies "that escaped the factory" is a funny legend for me, same as the 100 copies "that escaped the factory" of the Lord Ryur single... that in reality is 200 copies in a total pressing of 1000 - The legend says that 800 were destroyed.

I remember older days about the 1000 Medieval Steel EP vinyls. It didn't last long. It was 5000.

The funny is that these "legends" were spread by collectors or band members. I will wait for the next Paradoxx auction (soon I guess...) to laugh more.

Death Rider wrote:"Legends" apply until they will fall. The 50 Paradoxx copies "that escaped the factory" is a funny legend for me, same as the 100 copies "that escaped the factory" of the Lord Ryur single... that in reality is 200 copies in a total pressing of 1000 - The legend says that 800 were destroyed.

I remember older days about the 1000 Medieval Steel EP vinyls. It didn't last long. It was 5000.

The funny is that these "legends" were spread by collectors or band members. I will wait for the next Paradoxx auction (soon I guess...) to laugh more.

They did not "escape" the factory. Due to the fact that the factory did a mistake at the labels, the band got some copies and glued over the mistaken labels, cheap ones with correct tracklisting. Those copies were given at the release party. The record was supposed to be printed again but never did. Even if the 50 copies is not correct (although a band member said that they were only 50), they for sure were very few in circulation.

As for Medieval Steel i don't remember anyone saying that it was a 1000 print. At least no one that contacted band members or their manager back in the past. There is no comparison between Medieval Steel and Paradoxx in terms of rarity. In the '90s Medieval Steel was very easy to find, almost all European dealers had copies that they were getting from a Swiss record dealer for cheap (he had many copies in stock).

As I said, "legends" apply until they fall. Same as Lord Ryur. We will see if another Paradoxx copy will be out soon...

Lately, many "expensive" records (not like Paradoxx of course) are spread and "destroy" the higher price of the past, like Trop Feross EP (crap record btw). This is funny, and to be honest, I like it.

Death Rider wrote:As I said, "legends" apply until they fall. Same as Lord Ryur. We will see if another Paradoxx copy will be out soon...

Lately, many "expensive" records (not like Paradoxx of course) are spread and "destroy" the higher price of the past, like Trop Feross EP (crap record btw). This is funny, and to be honest, I like it.

I am pretty sure that there will be another Paradoxx soon.
That does not mean that it is easy to find. It is common when a record reaches very high prices, to see more copies for sale at Ebay. Damn, for that price even i would consider selling my copy

As for Trop Feross (which i really like btw), me and Jim got many years ago the copies that the singer had but we never located the guitarist. The copies that are sold now are the guitarist's copies. But again, you can't compare Paradoxx with Trop Feross in terms of rarity.

Back in the '90s, one of the rarest record to find was Xcel. Some years ago, the band leader started to sell the copies he had through Ebay. He was putting a copy at auction every week. That caused it's price to drop significantly. Collectors thought that this would make it easy to find, forever. When he sold all the copies he had, that was it. Now years later, those that did not buy it back then are still looking for it but now it became rare again. It is all about demand and supply.

chatzial wrote: There are only 50 copies of Paradoxx and that is not a legend, i have confirmed it over the years with ex-members and friends of the band.

Yes, it's confirmed. 'Legend' may have been a poor word choice on my part. My point is that it's one of those stories that practically everyone knows; it has a legendary status among heavy metal collectors ('legendary' as in holy grail item known to all, not legendary' as in imaginary or made up).

In my opinion Paradoxx is one of the best private U.S. Metal releases.

That's cool; IMO it's decent but not outstanding.

And since it is one of the rarest U.S. Metal vinyls, it is not "wrong" for it to fetch high prices.

Well, here we get back to Glockose's old question of "what is rare?". Some numbers to consider:
Paradoxx = 50 copies made it into circulation
White Lion = ~ 10 copies known
Critical Mass = ~ 10 copies known
Metal Merchant = ~ 6-7 copies known
Liquid Earth = ~ 6 copies known
Zaxas = < 10 copies known
Paragon = ~ 5 copies known

It took me < 2 minutes to think of six US metal 12" records that are much, much rarer than Paradoxx,
In the past few months (the same time frame that we've seen multiple Paradoxxes sell for $1500-3000) we've also seen the following auctions:
White Lion = ~ $200
Critical Mass = $482
Paragon = ~ $500
Go back to earlier this year and you can add these:
Zaxas ~ $500
Metal Merchant ~ $900

Thus, the rarity of Paradoxx is definitely NOT the primary variable driving the auction prices. These other albums are much rarer but sold** for much less. It's the legendary status of Paradoxx that pushes it to the next price level, not the number of copies that avoided destruction at the pressing plant.



**Granted, prices do vary; someone noted that Paradoxxes have sold for < $1,000, and several items on my list (above) have sold for $1000+. But Paradoxx has regularly brought well over $1,000 in recent years, with more than 1 copy bringing over $2,000. Only three of the other records listed above have topped the $1,000 mark, and none of them have made it above the $1,500 mark.


(all prices are based on the sales that I am aware of)

Personally, I also do not trust musicians that much, as they often tend to exaggerate and so I have my doubts that there were just 50 copies...But even if there are twice or thrice as much copies around, the rarity of this record can't be compared to most other records as chatzial said. One has to look at Hammeron, that is without doubts far more "common" as all copies have survived and still it is a pain in the ass to find it.
I agree that the legendary status is responsible for the price, but I also don't think that most of the other records that nightsblood has listed are necessarily more rare. I know of at least 5 copies of Paradoxx in Germany, 3 more in Greece and now 1 in Italy (these are the ones I have heard of), but this is still nothing compared to how many people are searching for it. I think that the low number of the other records in collections is probably also due to the fact, that just a few people know them and much less people are after them compared to Paradoxx. That doesn't necessarily mean that they all were also pressed in less copies , though all of them had surely also very low quantities

this crazy price for Paradoxx drives me mad because I once held a copy in my hands for $300 and passed on it after listening to it. I thought it was just average and no way would play that inflated price, since also I knew the seller found it for $1. Jim ended up buying it instead and making a tidy profit after he sold it.
My main question, is why has this record never had a vinyl reissue with bonus tracks?

chatzial wrote: But here is an example, Jim Cranford bought over the years many rare records from Ebay (i know, he outbid me in many records). After many years he sold his collection mainly through Ebay. That means that some of his rarities were sold through Ebay twice. And this is only one example.