Metal Collecting ..only for the rich & elderly?

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humus
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Metal Collecting ..only for the rich & elderly?

Post#1 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:02 am

A good topic that deserves its own thread. Split from "Insane eBay auctions.."/aDmiN

With nowadays prices I think record collecting is becoming more and more of a hobby for the elderly with disposable income anyway :P

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Cyrcka
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Re: Insane Ebay Auctions - Vinyl, Tapes & Merch

Post#2 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:26 pm

humus wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:02 am
With nowadays prices I think record collecting is becoming more and more of a hobby for the elderly with disposable income anyway :P
Thats what i think too.

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Khnud
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Re: Insane Ebay Auctions - Vinyl, Tapes & Merch

Post#3 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:20 pm

Cyrcka wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:26 pm
humus wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:02 am
With nowadays prices I think record collecting is becoming more and more of a hobby for the elderly with disposable income anyway :P
Thats what i think too.
Man that sucks if it's the case. I don't want heavy metal collecting to turn into punk collecting, where all big collectors wear suits and have highly paid jobs, totally contrary to what the scene was originally all about.
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humus
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Re: Insane Ebay Auctions - Vinyl, Tapes & Merch

Post#4 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:08 pm

I get what you mean but...at what point in the last 25 years did you not need a big bag of money to get the top metal rarities? Unless you were an almost full-time digger or incredibly lucky, but same applies to rare punk records. Even back in the 90's you had US metal records selling for 500 DM in Europe.
It's probably sped up in the last few years, punk especially has. And I'm not saying it's a good thing, far from. But the big collectors have big bucks, and it has been so for a while.

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mordred
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Re: Insane Ebay Auctions - Vinyl, Tapes & Merch

Post#5 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:30 am

Do you see any relation between these two? Why are there no cheap records? There are, but all are sucked up by dealers and collectors who intend to make money on them. Only way to lower prices and more reasonably priced records to more people is if less people seek to benefit. I’m probably fighting the fight the wrong way, but I don’t buy records I don’t intend to keep for myself.
Khnud wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:20 pm
Man that sucks if it's the case. I don't want heavy metal collecting to turn into punk collecting, where all big collectors wear suits and have highly paid jobs, totally contrary to what the scene was originally all about.
Khnud wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:57 pm
Bargain hunting days are not completely over. Last month I bought a rockabilly single from a guy who lives in the next closest town from here. Listed it on Discogs and it sold after only 20 minutes, for over 6 times what I payed, to a Japanese dealer with 1500+ feedback. I'm pretty sure he's going to make a decent profit in turn, flipping it to some other guy from Japan.
In some lost corner of the world there sits a leprechaun laughing merrily atop a mountain of mysteriously lost LP innersleeves

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Khnud
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Re: Insane Ebay Auctions - Vinyl, Tapes & Merch

Post#6 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:36 am

Wow, you must have browsed through a lot of threads on this forum just to find that message. ;-)

Yeah, buying a record for 30 SEK (about €3) and selling it for 200 (about €20) is surely killing the collecting scene. Especially since the average Discogs price for this item was 220 SEK (€22) to begin with, so I was actually deflating the price on it...

But yeah, of course you are correct. People like money. What I absolutely hate is people who insist on trying to sell items for <maximum price they've ever sold for multiplied with 50 per cent>. That will kill the collecting scene. Compare with the punk scene, where almost every diy release from the late 70's early 80's is now a $$$ or even $$$$ item, not many will be able to keep up with those prices (myself included, regardless of how many cheap rockabilly 45s I find and sell for coffee money).
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DaN
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Re: Metal Collecting ..only for the rich & elderly?

Post#7 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:40 am

Interesting... Are all good 80's HM vinyl getting more expensive though?

Originals of all the classic bands - Yes
Kült-rarities (Militia, Wyzard, various nwobhm 7" etc) - Yes

...but inbetween is where we find the majority of vinyl Steel and not all of it is mediocre. If you don't have a problem with coughing up €20-€50 for a great underrated olde Metal release there's still a lot of goodies up for grabs.

archive.org is down while I'm writing this, but if you have the time and can find it, look up the old Metal Treasures-site and check the suggested prices on some of that stuff - almost everything was rated $100+ but today you'll actually get it cheaper...
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mordred
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Re: Insane Ebay Auctions - Vinyl, Tapes & Merch

Post#8 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:33 am

Khnud wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:36 am
Wow, you must have browsed through a lot of threads on this forum just to find that message. ;-)

Yeah, buying a record for 30 SEK (about €3) and selling it for 200 (about €20) is surely killing the collecting scene. Especially since the average Discogs price for this item was 220 SEK (€22) to begin with, so I was actually deflating the price on it...

But yeah, of course you are correct. People like money. What I absolutely hate is people who insist on trying to sell items for <maximum price they've ever sold for multiplied with 50 per cent>. That will kill the collecting scene. Compare with the punk scene, where almost every diy release from the late 70's early 80's is now a $$$ or even $$$$ item, not many will be able to keep up with those prices (myself included, regardless of how many cheap rockabilly 45s I find and sell for coffee money).
No need to defend that enterprise of yours, I'm sure you understand the quote was just an illustration. Your 20 euros is not the end price though, is it? You hinted as much. By "end price" I mean the price paid by the dude who intends to put the record in his or her collection. The more people who take a cut along the way, the higher the end price. It works the same way for 30 euro records and 300 euro records.

I see a problem that so many collectors also fancy themselves dealers, or finance their collecting by obtaining records they intend to sell or trade for other records. I.e. make money off other collectors so they have more money to give to yet other collectors. That means larger money flow = higher end prices before a record stops being traded or re-sold. At least according to my theories.

I mean, I see stuff like the first Mindless Sinner MLP at record fairs for 15 euros. I leave it and think someone will score a good record at a good price for their collection, but I know that's just romantic thinking. It will almost invariably be picked up by someone who's going to put it for sale at 40 euros.

Side note:

There are two assets one can invest to build a respectable record collection. Money and time. I'm not particularly rich in money, but I'm way poorer in time with full time job and two kids. I don't have time to go on crate digging trips or skulk around Facebook to try and get stock copies from old band members. It makes more sense to me to spend a day's income on one record I really want than to spend the equivalent of two working days to find a rare record cheap. For someone else it might be the other way around of course. Before I had a family and such I seem to remember I spent more time searching for records, but less money on average.
In some lost corner of the world there sits a leprechaun laughing merrily atop a mountain of mysteriously lost LP innersleeves

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mordred
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Re: Metal Collecting ..only for the rich & elderly?

Post#9 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:42 am

DaN wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:40 am
Interesting... Are all good 80's HM vinyl getting more expensive though?

Originals of all the classic bands - Yes
Kült-rarities (Militia, Wyzard, various nwobhm 7" etc) - Yes

...but inbetween is where we find the majority of vinyl Steel and not all of it is mediocre. If you don't have a problem with coughing up €20-€50 for a great underrated olde Metal release there's still a lot of goodies up for grabs.

archive.org is down while I'm writing this, but if you have the time and can find it, look up the old Metal Treasures-site and check the suggested prices on some of that stuff - almost everything was rated $100+ but today you'll actually get it cheaper...
According to my observations, the biggest general price surge has been in the "cult classics" or "semi classics". Stuff that's regarded classic or influential but didn't sell outrageously huge amounts. Stuff like Angel Witch, Satan, Mercyful Fate, Blitzkrieg, Diamond Head and the like. Records that nearly all half-serious metal collectors will want but don't exist in the amounts of Saxon or Motörhead records.

Records like the first Satan or Angel Witch were 10 to 15 euro records 15 or 20 years ago. Now I suppose they are 30 to 50 euro records. While many records that were 150 euro records 15 years ago are still 150 euro records today.
In some lost corner of the world there sits a leprechaun laughing merrily atop a mountain of mysteriously lost LP innersleeves

humus
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Re: Metal Collecting ..only for the rich & elderly?

Post#10 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:59 am

There are so many facets to this discussion, that makes it interesting but also means there will never be consensus.

On the evolution of record prices: I am not an expert on heavy metal and my first and true love is black metal. When I compare prices with 20 years ago there are few records that remained on the same price level, only a handful decreased in value, and most went up quite a bit. And then there's the 'WTF' category like Dissection, where Storm of the light's bane went from being a 50 euro record to a 600 euro record in just ten years.

On the why of the evolution: as long as I've been in the metal scene (which is, being in my mid 30's, not as long as many of the posters here, so feel free to share if you have a different opinion) I've seen a relativly small influx of young people interested in underground music, and as an extent underground vinyl.
When it comes to the extreme genres I probably know most collectors in Belgium. A few are younger than me, most are older, but I don't know anyone under let's say 25 who really bothers with original presses like I used to do at that age. I hardly even see people under 25 at underground gigs really. So I don't think it's young people that push up the prices. In any case, they'd have to have deep pockets to build a collection at this point. And young people generally don't have that kind of cash to drop.
Who has deep pockets? Well...you and me probably. Not deep as in millionaire deep, but most of us can buy something expensive from time to time without it impacting our general finances. And Mordred is correct. We have some disposable income because we have jobs, but that also means less time to dig for stuff. So the consequence is we'll sometimes just 'pay the price'.

And could Dan's remark about mid-rarity heavy metal records not increasing in price actually indicate it is in fact the older generation that is pushing up the prices? Let's assume a lot of collector's stick to their childhood music. A lot of heavy metal collectors were kids in the early 80's. A lot of extreme metal collectors are a bit younger and were kids in the early 90's.
As the heavy metal collectors morphed into a generation with steady income and disposable income this pushed up the prices for heavy metal records years ago. At the same time the extreme metal generation was 10 years younger and not quite there yet financially. A decade later, they are in the same spot, pushing up the prices of extreme metal records which is the evolution that you see today.
'Big bands' see their prices rising because they also appeal somewhat to a younger crowd, increasing demand. 'Big rarities' see their prices rising because they are subject to conspicuous consumption. And the mid rarities, once their price has increased together with the income of the people on the demanding side, can rest at some sort of price equilibrium.


Just some random thoughts when reading some of the posts here, it's not like this is one of life's questions for me where I spent days thinking about. If cash meant anything to me I would now sell my collection, because I see it decreasing in value in the future rather than increasing. But it's the records that mean something to me, regardless of their monetary value, so I just keep expanding my collection instead of downsizing.

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Khnud
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Re: Metal Collecting ..only for the rich & elderly?

Post#11 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:41 pm

Things that have become cheaper: many nwobhm singles. Other things that have become cheaper: once the first discovered copy of an unknown US hard rock/metal single sells for $$$ to one of the big time collectors, the price on the one listed next drops dramatically. And last and not least (and I'm sure you all recognize this one): those rare items you own always seem to become cheaper, and the rare items you don't own (but desperately need) all become more expensive! :D
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GulliverFoyle
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Re: Metal Collecting ..only for the rich & elderly?

Post#12 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:36 pm

Well, I'm rich guy, but I rarely have money for records these days (otherwise I wouldn't be very rich, right? Ouroboros logic strikes again)... :D
Music that would be at times LARGER than life and DEEPER than the Ocean…(Jon Drenning)

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doomedplanet
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Re: Metal Collecting ..only for the rich & elderly?

Post#13 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:43 pm

The prices on records have gotten wonky in recent years. Some things like the price asked for Virtue 7" stun me. Obviously this new high price has brought some copies out of the cellar for sale.

Why I cannot say, but I can say that it makes it much harder to find something in the wild if a seller prices off discogs because they think they can sell the record for this price in their local market. I think many shops price with discogs and if they know it will sell more for there, that is where it gets listed.

Maybe records and rarities can be categorized this way:
Known records (the commons and even the semi-regular stuff)
known unknown records (the obscure but still known by some, like folks on this forum)
unknown unknown records (this is where things are interesting like khnud mentioned. If some record in this category pops up, with sound samples, and it hits the eyes and ears of the right people, you never know what the thing might sell for)

I will admit I am searching for a unknown unknown 7" for 10-12 years. Not metal, hard rock. I finally found a band member. Only after I found an obituary though of another member. Anyway I am STILL waiting for the guy to find anything related to the band. He says he has some stuff. He just does not know where. Now down to price for a item like this? Hell, no one knows it (ok, 2 collectors outside of the band know about the record but no copies ever sold publicly). So it is possible it will always remain unknown.
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fengisriprider
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Re: Metal Collecting ..only for the rich & elderly?

Post#14 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:49 am

There are annoying aspects to it, but I am more worried about monetization by bands and lables reducing the artistic integrity of new heavy metal rock than I am the record hunting aspect of things. To much focus on sale of image and performance not enough on actual music composition and concepts, to much focus on packaging and presentation/advertising, not enough focus on writing and developing unique messages or atmosphere. That's more troubling to me than high record prices. I will gladly pay for sheer brilliance!
"I thought we were heavy metal."

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Khnud
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Re: Metal Collecting ..only for the rich & elderly?

Post#15 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:28 am

fengisriprider wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:49 am
There are annoying aspects to it, but I am more worried about monetization by bands and lables reducing the artistic integrity of new heavy metal rock than I am the record hunting aspect of things. To much focus on sale of image and performance not enough on actual music composition and concepts, to much focus on packaging and presentation/advertising, not enough focus on writing and developing unique messages or atmosphere. That's more troubling to me than high record prices. I will gladly pay for sheer brilliance!
Yeah, the ongoing genre saturation is an interesting topic in itself, but more suitable in a separate thread methinks.
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