Downloading issues (again)

MEXDefenderOfSteel · Post by **MEXDefenderOfSteel** » Tue May 31, 2011 5:53 pm

Ten years ago when i started buying stuff,indeed wasnt the internet helping me at all, it was through magazines,zines, booklets,my older friend´s recomendattion or my older brother cool tastes, etc Not knowing what to expect exactly was a great sensation for me back then,so i totally agree with quietus on that area

PERSONALLY i feel like shit for having a download from Poisonoise subforum that im pretty sure i wont get beacuse of its rarity or its stupid price, after months, i do delete whatever it is just cause its too much to bear(my personal "morals" i guess?).... or even better, when my fave indie labels (including BBTAD) announce some obscure fucker coming up and it happens to be on a mp3 file in my computer because of the reasons i already gave, its going to the recycle bin right away cause sooner or later im BUYING IT....confession: its been counted times i have downloaded stuff from blogs, again i feel like shit when doing that,but there are non downloadable sources like Youtube or Grooveshark where you can have a lil taste of what you are willing to buy,they have helped me with my inner issues of downloading or not X/Y album, again, PERSONALLY, i dont like hearing the ENTIRE album before buying it, 2 songs are more than perfect to me to decide whether i will eat my meals for 2 weeks,or eat my metal dose whether be Cds or Vynil.

what i do seriosuly think is that once your mp3 files exceed your physical media collection,you have turned out gay, sorry if i hurt anybody with that,but its true in this context and i wont change my mind with that

Cochino · Post by **Cochino** » Tue May 31, 2011 7:42 pm

Ok, you should all try to move to Neuquén (where I live) and try to find new bands and get records without using internet. Not to mention that when I buy something I have to pay pretty expensive shipping and the dollar exchange is pretty fucked down here. Of course, if I could walk into a store and buy Metal records for reasonable prices I would do a lot more blind buying, but every item I buy turns out pretty expensive to me. I think people just judge others from their tiny world and can't see that reality is not the same for everybody. Take Ion Britton for example. Greece is totally fucked up economically so I guess he can't go around spending so much money in records anymore. He still has a pretty big collection and I don't have a doubt he's totally devoted to the music and supporting the bands. Now, instead of trying to understand his particular situation (or mine, living in a pretty remote area with no real scene and no stores that carry LPs or material from underground bands) you just write every single mp3 user as a ripoff, while we never said that all labels were leeching the band's money and we constantly said that we buy and support smaller labels every time we can.

Piotr Sargnagel · Post by **Piotr Sargnagel** » Tue May 31, 2011 8:02 pm

Let me make this totally clear - I have no problem at all with downloading something that is oop and I delete that item when it gets re-released (like Street Child for example and Militia) and like Mex said, two songs of a new release is usually more than enough - I don't like to spoil the enjoyment of getting a new (good) record. But I try to support bands and small labels like everyone here, my MP3 folder contains maybe 30 releases, most of them oop and way too expensive for me to ever get unless I am lucky. But take a new-ish band like Urfaust for example. heard of them recently, downloaded the newest album and as soon as I heard one song I immediately went and bought everything I could find. That made money for a couple of labels, a distro and a band. I feel very aggrieved that someone would call me a leecher when a huge amount of my money goes to buying music and supporting labels.

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Tue May 31, 2011 9:07 pm

Cochino wrote:Ok, you should all try to move to Neuquén (where I live) and try to find new bands and get records without using internet. Not to mention that when I buy something I have to pay pretty expensive shipping and the dollar exchange is pretty fucked down here. Of course, if I could walk into a store and buy Metal records for reasonable prices I would do a lot more blind buying, but every item I buy turns out pretty expensive to me. I think people just judge others from their tiny world and can't see that reality is not the same for everybody. Take Ion Britton for example. Greece is totally fucked up economically so I guess he can't go around spending so much money in records anymore. He still has a pretty big collection and I don't have a doubt he's totally devoted to the music and supporting the bands. Now, instead of trying to understand his particular situation (or mine, living in a pretty remote area with no real scene and no stores that carry LPs or material from underground bands) you just write every single mp3 user as a ripoff, while we never said that all labels were leeching the band's money and we constantly said that we buy and support smaller labels every time we can.

Yes, unfortunately we are not among the privileged anymore and it's getting worse as time goes by. I know people here who have simply stopped buying records, they just can't afford it anymore. And I'm talking about people who used to buy on a very regular basis, not some random leechers who have only mp3s at their home.
I don't know how many of the people registered in this forum have lived/live in situations such as those Cochino described above, it's quite difficult to describe it to someone who hasn't experienced it... Talking about Greece, in this period for most people here every euro/dollar/pound counts and they certainly can't go around making tons of blind purchases just for the fun of it, they need to know exactly where they spend their money on and what they're buying. Personally, I'm not in the awful situation a lot of people (mainly unemployed) here are, however I'd say that I have cut down on buying records around 30% the last 1.5 year. I make almost no blind purchases anymore and previewing an album before I decide whether to buy it or not has become some sort of an obligation.

I'll quote one line of Piotr's previous post because I think it applies to the majority of the people here, at least to those who post regurarly

I accept that I'm doing wrong by downloading but I do it so I CAN SUPPORT labels and bands not because I want music for free

Of course many of us have stated the same thing before as well, but after 5 pages full of lessons on ethics and legality it feels somehow necessary to say it once again. If someone hasn't realized that yet one the two following things is probably happening: either he's totally new on the forum or he hasn't participated in more than 5 discussions here.

Dodens Grav · Post by **Dodens Grav** » Tue May 31, 2011 9:18 pm

I said earlier that I was backing out of the argument, but I just wanted to say that I believe the issue is that there are several micro-arguments going on simultaneously with people who hold different positions, and different positions are inevitably being transferred onto the wrong people.

Piotr Sargnagel · Post by **Piotr Sargnagel** » Tue May 31, 2011 10:31 pm

You are completely right with this assessment.

daniel · Post by **daniel** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:25 am

In the end it doesn't bother me one bit how much anyone downloads from blogs, nor do I have any problem doing it myself. I don't delete files after reissues come out, for one thing I might want to listen to MP3s when I'm cycling, skating or travelling - Only ever listening to music in my flat is not ok for me. Also don't only listen to metal. Can't see the point in thinking anyone is "gay" for having lots of MP3s, I could just as well say people who don't own an original "Armed For Battle" LP are posers no? I've got a few thousand releases on various physical formats, nothing to prove to anyone anymore. Pretty far from understanding why it's "wrong" to have MP3s on your computer, maybe with that attitude the computer should be got rid of as well...

After the chaos my life has been the last 1.5 years I became less obsessed with owning as much as possible on vinyl which has been liberating really, not getting so worked up over what slipped by etc. I've been spending much less on records during this time as well, some things really deteriorate in importance when you're faced with issues that are way more serious. I even think it was escapism trying to "show off" with records or simply running away to that reality. I've been much more selective with what I buy because of the poorer financial situation as well. What has been said here is exactly right, about people being very narrow-minded and not considering the situations of others in these cases. I don't know the reasons behind certain opinions, sometimes I think it's along the lines of lack of experience or introspection, sometimes the way people behave makes me think they're putting on a role because of the supposed way you should be in metal circles, and lots of the time people don't even realise this about themselves.

MEXDefenderOfSteel · Post by **MEXDefenderOfSteel** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:11 am

im broke, from a third world country,and internet is mainly my only "store" here....i still think having more mp3 than phisycal media is gay....and although i have mp3 in my computer,i use it for several other purposes than just storing music....

bottomline, everyone is fucked up in their way,just read my post above ,and lets embrace plurality as fucked as it can be seen by the other

GJ · Post by GJ » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:21 am

Right on Diego!

nightsblood · Post by **nightsblood** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:07 pm

Piotr makes some very good points and does so w/o being rude. Kudos.

For the record, checking out Metal in the USA is not always easy either. I know the situation is not as bad as Mexico, Argentina, etc., but I sometimes think there's a misperception that Metal is easy to come by here in the US. The US is a huge country and the metal fan base is spread very thin, and record stores continue to disappear. If you live in rural areas or small towns, you can have a tough time getting access to metal even in the US.

all this talk of not being able to buy a record with out the aid of the internet is gaying me out big time.

I must echo Ion's response to this comment; it's pretty sad that you repeatedly resort to insults and consider anyone who disagrees with your approach to buying music to be 'gay'. Your comments imitate those of people claiming "you can't be a tr00 kvlt metal fan if you _____". Regardless of their stance on d/ling, I think most people here would agree that such narrow-minded judgments of others are elitist at best.

Above you mention that "it's a matter of respect" between the label and the fans, yet you show very little respect to the fans of your label. This thread is not the first time I've seen you lash out at BBT&D customers. You brutally insulted someone in another thread for complaining about the quality of the booklet included in one of your Pagan Altar releases, despite the fact that the person posted an overall favorable comment about the release.

Given your obvious disdain for the majority of the heavy metal community, I have to wonder why you decided to be involved in a business that exclusively caters to metal fans. Considering your repeated insults towards customers who, like myself, do not share your views about the 'right' way to go about buying records, I will reconsider supporting your label in the future. BBT&D puts out awesome, high-quality products, and I know others involved with the label who are great folks and are very nice to deal with. But no one wants to eat at a nice restaurant if one of the chefs is spitting in their food.

GJ · Post by GJ » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:28 pm

nightsblood wrote:no one wants to eat at a nice restaurant if one of the chefs is spitting in their food.

Well, in this case I may be willing to make an exception! Haha!

quietus · Post by **quietus** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:15 pm

@ Nightsblood-

I will do this without the insults, which I realize are not helping me get my original point across.

I don't have an issue with people having mp3s or whatever of out of print/hard to find super expensive stuff etc..... No problem at all....

I dont have a problem with people using the internet for hearing stuff and buying records...it;s true if it wasnt for the old net helping and making bbtad possible you'd see 2 guys sitting in a room with 498 extra records in boxes...

I have an issue with people who post albums for download(and those who download them) which are currently for sale and that the band /label has expressly requested not to. I realize this is a very antiquated notion, but still belive this is"right".

In the US and everywhere else I guess record stores are disappearing at lightning speed......I know who killed them as well.

We do this shit cuz we love metal and want to get the records we want in our collections and into like minded people's as well. We are certainly not elitist in any way.....

Anyway no more insults from me will be forthcoming, except for that guy who had an issue with the Pagan Altar book.....what a cunt.

Piotr Sargnagel · Post by **Piotr Sargnagel** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:54 pm

And now we have a discussion. Thank you. I'll contribute a bit more tomorrow if I get the chance but thanks for putting your view across like you did!

daniel · Post by **daniel** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:28 am

Suddenly a quite different attitude emereged, with no sort of apologies to boot.

quietus · Post by **quietus** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:32 am

daniel wrote:Suddenly a quite different attitude emereged, with no sort of apologies to boot.

I am very sorry, that your spelling is abysmal.