"The Collector Mania-mindset" discussion thread.

Heavy Metal Hunting, record Q's & trivia, collector stuff. Rare or not, it all goes here.
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nightsblood
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"The Collector Mania-mindset" discussion thread.

Post#1 » Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:35 pm

Split from the COLLECTOR PORN-thread. An interesting subject well worth blabbing about, but let's keep it in one place for convenience's sake.../aDmiN

Careful looking down your nose at other peoples' collecting habits; other people may think that the way YOU collect sucks. One person's "overhyped crap" is another person's all-time favorite release. There is no 'right way' or 'wrong way' to collect. Everyone is free to register their opinion, but remember that they're just opinions; yours is no more or less 'correct' than anyone else's.

And I'm really tired of people complaining about someone spending a lot of money on a record(s). If the buyer can afford it, who cares how they spend their money? It's nobody else's business really. Patrik's looked for Scratch for ages. He's great at digging up good buys and setting up trades to get rare records, and he lives in the band's home country, but he's had no luck getting Scratch. So he either breaks out his wallet and pays $$$ to get this copy, or he keeps digging around and hopes that sometime in the next several years he has that magical moment where he walks into a flea market and gets a copy for $1. Obviously we ALL would LOVE to get EVERY rare record we want in the cheapo bin, but you only get so many of those 'Great Finds'; for the other records you want, you either pay for 'em or you do without 'em.
"I'm sorry Sam, we had real chemistry. But like a monkey on the sun, our love was too hot to live"
-Becky

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daniel
Posts: 1992

Post#2 » Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:49 pm

Yeah it matters that it's a big problem when I make a fuss. Any really expensive record I ever bought I saved up for it and worked, it wasn't some 'oh whatever' scenario, and I don't buy 'rare' stuff just cos it's rare, which seems to be a common collector mentality, like Kuntz buying expensive stuff he's never even heard just cos he knows it's rare. I have no respect for that. This whole thing is not a big dig at Patrick, good for him he got a want, but I think it's a crappy 7", ok? I can say so, and I can say it's retarded paying that much for it just cos it goes for that much these days and simply BECAUSE IT'S A COLLECTORS' ITEM... Like earlier, If I come here and say I just spent 1 million euros on LP:s, you're not going to feel a bit annoyed? If yes, then what is your point exactly?
Are you the tyrant, who cast them to the sea?
One day you'll be among the dead.

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nightsblood
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Post#3 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:35 am

daniel wrote:Yeah it matters that it's a big problem when I make a fuss.
Well, I think "it's a big problem" b/c you often come across pretty insulting when you make a fuss. I'm not saying that is your intention, but your posts often have a very negative, accusatory tone, which will make people react defensively.
Any really expensive record I ever bought I saved up for it and worked, it wasn't some 'oh whatever' scenario,
That's cool, but not everyone collects the same way you do.
and I don't buy 'rare' stuff just cos it's rare, which seems to be a common collector mentality, like Kuntz buying expensive stuff he's never even heard just cos he knows it's rare.
Well, that's the way HE collects. Who's to say that your way is better than his way?
I have no respect for that.
Comments like that make it sound as though you are trying to insult the buyer. Would you like it if someone insulted or made fun of the way you collect?
This whole thing is not a big dig at Patrick, good for him he got a want, but I think it's a crappy 7", ok?
OK, that's fine, I'm sure other people don't like it either. No prob there.
I can say so,
Yup, and that's cool too. I do the same thing every time someone posts an "I love the band HELL" thread :)
and I can say it's retarded paying that much for it
Ah, you said you were not taking a dig at Patrik, but now you ARE insulting Patrik, calling his decision 'retarded'.

$950 is very much in line with the current selling price of this record. Is it a lot to pay for a record? Sure, even Patrik admitted that. Is it a ridiculous amount to pay for a copy of Scratch? Not at all, based on what other copies have sold for in recent years.
just cos it goes for that much these days
Wait... so by your logic it is retarded to pay the normal price that something regularly sells for? That makes no sense. Is it retarded for me to pay $10,000 for a new car that usually "goes for that much these days"? So what, the only way Patrik could buy the single without acting 'retarded' was if he got it for $5 at a thrift shop?

The Scratch single consistently sells in the $1,000 neighborhood. The last 3 copies auctioned brought $825, $900, and $1100+, so $950 was a fair price for the item in today's market.
and simply BECAUSE IT'S A COLLECTORS' ITEM
And here you insult him again by insinuating that the only reason he wants it is b/c it's collectible. You may not like the single, but maybe Patrik loves it. In that case he's not buying it just to get a rare collectible.
... Like earlier, If I come here and say I just spent 1 million euros on LP:s, you're not going to feel a bit annoyed? If yes, then what is your point exactly?
No, I wouldn't feel annoyed. If you have a million euros to blow on records, that's your business. Power to you.

The only reasons I get annoyed at how other people spend money on records:

1- if they are spending money they do not have or can't afford; that's financially irresponsible

2- If they are paying way more than the item is actually worth. The buyer can spend their money how he wishes, but paying $300 for an item that usually sells for $50 throws the marketplace off and makes it harder for other people to get the item for a fair price b/c other sellers start trying to get $300 for their copy. If Patrik had paid $3,000 for it I would wonder what the heck he was doing overpaying like that.


To summarize; the reason people get upset with your posts is that you come across pretty insulting a lot of the time. You are free to state your opinion on records and transactions, but you don't have to word every reply to make the buyer sound like some asshole poseur with more money than brains. If you take cheap shots at people like that, well, it shouldn't surprise you when people snipe back at you. Respect their opinions and they'll be more likely to respect yours.
"I'm sorry Sam, we had real chemistry. But like a monkey on the sun, our love was too hot to live"
-Becky

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nightsblood
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Post#4 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:07 am

Moving on from the discussion with Daniel to other things. Some random thoughts about the current state of collecting metal.....

******

There seems to be a lot of angst about the manner in which people assemble their collection. Buy too much at once and you're a rich poseur. Buy too little and you're not tr00. Pay X amount and you're a dick with more money than brains. Post your recent finds and you're a show-off. Don't post your finds and you're a hoarding troll.

What are the reasons that people adopt these attitudes that 'you're collecting all wrong!' ? Envy, identity, and competitiveness seem like obvious motivators.

Envy- You have something I want, so to make me feel better about not owning it I'm gonna tear you down

Identity- I wanna have the best collection, so anyone with more toys than me threatens my identity as Top Collector

Competition- My collection is better than yours.

I'm sure there are other reasons.... what do folks think?


*********

About getting rare records these days, there are only so many ways to do it.

1- Start collecting 30 years ago when they were cheap and easy to find.
Pro- your collection is awesome and cost very little
Con- Doesn't work unless you started 30 years ago or have a time machine :)

2- Refuse to pay more than a small amount for any record.
Pro- keeps it cheap. Never accused of overpaying.
Con- Your only chance to get certain records is through pure luck by finding them much cheaper than they normally sell for. Hard to build a large collection, hard to get items that are usually pricey.

3 (similar to #2) - Hold out for the Great Buys
Pro- always fun to get something rare and expensive for peanuts, makes for a great story.
Con- Takes a lot of time and patience to find ANYTHING worthwhile, and even longer to find the particular item(s) that you want. Resign yourself to having a small collection and getting new items very infrequently

4- Pay the going rate.
Pro- you'll get the items you want much faster than waiting for them to show up for 50 cents each at a local flea market.
Con- gets expensive, so you'll need $$.

5- Get Cheaper Versions
Pro- music is the same on reissues and mp3s, sometimes you even get bonus material and improved sound quality
Con- not as collectible to some folks, and not likely to have as much value in the future. Just depends on whether or not you're satisfied not having 'the real thing'

6- Other Strategies
???


**********

On to paying the big bucks.....

This seems to be a divisive issue at times. Some observations I've made over the past several years.

1- Heavy Metal fans/collectors are, as a whole, financially pretty poor. I don't know if there's a correlation with age or some other social demographic, but we seem to have much less income to spend on records than collectors of other genres. This means relatively few metal collectors are capable of paying a lot (> $100) for a record in the first place. If we're strapped for cash and we see someone else spending freely, there's a tendency to react negatively towards that person. "Gee, I'd love to have that Leather Nunn record, look at that guy- must be nice to have money to burn like that! I can barely pay my bills and he's paying $1,000 for that album! WTF? That's 2 months' rent for me and he blows it on ONE ALBUM?!"

2- Your perception of what is 'a lot' to spend on records ties in directly to your income level. This seems obvious, but lots of folks claim, "oh I'd NEVER pay that much for a record no matter how much money I had". You may honestly believe that, but get a big jump in salary and I'll bet 9 out of 10 people are willing to start spending more on items than they used to.

When you struggle to make ends meet, the idea of paying $100++ for a record SHOULD be out of the question for you. That's just being financially responsible. But if you're making several thousand a month, you can probably afford to do so. If you've got the money and you want the item, there's not much to stop you from buying it. Most of us are just completely unfamiliar with having that much disposable income.


********

To conclude, here's how I collect. Not claiming at all this is the best way, or even a good way, just figured I'd put it out there as an example that the discussion can build off of if folks so choose.

1- I only collect the records I like musically. This means I do not stick to only rare items, and I do not aim to be completist for any band or label (unless I like every record by that artist/label). One advantage to this approach: even if a record goes down in value or is worth less than I paid for it, I can at least enjoy the music on it. It also means my collection stays pretty small, and I don't have many Top Items (the ones I do have I honestly do like musically; they were not obtained just 'cause they're rare).

2- I try to limit my monthly music budget to < 10% of my monthly income. If I can't afford it, I don't buy it. Sometimes I do go way over that mark, but overall these kind of limits help me keep it to a reasonable level. I am certainly not rich and I cannot afford a lot of the albums that I would like to own. I also put at least 1/3 of my paycheck each month into savings, and I clear any expensive records with the wife first :)

That said, my income has increased a lot in recent years, so I do spend more, and am willing to spend more on one particular item, than I used to. Dig through posts from 2006-7 and you'll find comments from me along the lines of, "I'm not sure I'd really enjoy an album if I paid more than $200 for it". At the time that was a huge amount of money to me. Now, not so much. My circumstances have changed, and for the right record I'll pay $200 and enjoy it just fine :)

3- I try to not over-pay for an item. Establishing a fair price for rare items is not always easy. But if I know a record routinely sells for $100, I'm not gonna pay $150 for it. I don't think of my records as investments, but if I wanted or needed to sell them, I want to make sure I can at least get my money back out of them, if not make some money on them.

4- I will buy multiple pressings/versions of an album if it's one I really like. A quick glance at my record shelf might make you think that Witchfinder General released 8 albums back in the day :lol: I don't have to have every version though

5- vinyl vs cd depends on the record. Sometimes but rarely I'll get both

6- I really try to avoid buying stuff out of curiosity, on a lark, or that I'm not at all familiar with. Used to do this a lot, and as often as not the album turned out to be uninteresting. Now I save my money for stuff I'm pretty certain I'm gonna enjoy.

7- I don't 'broadcast' my recent finds. Call me a hoarding little troll, I just don't post that info. I do let some folks know when I get certain things that I think might interest them.


********

Think I've rambled long enough. No idea if this is what DaN had in mind when he started this thread, guess we'll see
"I'm sorry Sam, we had real chemistry. But like a monkey on the sun, our love was too hot to live"
-Becky

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Andreas
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Post#5 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:42 am

Those last two posts are probably the most intelligent posts I've read on this forum, and represent exactly my thoughts on the subject (Although I wouldn't be able to explain in such a correct manner).

I guess not much can be added, other than what Alan said

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Sgt. Kuntz
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Post#6 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:30 am

It's interesting to see that others care about my or others purchase habits, i don't really understand why and i certanly don't feel the urge to convince anybody of anything.

It's always a two-egged issue if one should post for example his 'recent metal finds' or not. I think it's part of the forum discussion, but if the negative comments would become rile then i and others will stop doing so, that's fine. I collect for myself, for the fun of it, to discover new, old records and meet and discuss with other collectors, very simple, not the most amazing hobby out there, others go paragliding or boar hunting, haha. It's not the center of my life, i have a full-time job, family with little kids and friends outside of the metal world, also financialy does my hobby not affect any other issues or my life standard at all (hard to estimate the correct percentage like Alan did, but it think it's also around 10% or below from my income what i spend at the moment for record hunting).
Where were you in '79 when the dam began to burst


http://www.musik-sammler.de/sammlung/ptrz80

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ION BRITTON
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Post#7 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:38 am

I'm sure this was discussed before, but I cannot find the thread right now.

Anyway. While the observations/facts stated above are mostly true, at the end of the day it doesn't matter if you have paid 1 billion or .5 dollar for a record, what does matter is if you DO listen to it and if you, most of all, enjoy THE MUSIC that's inside. It's not bad if the number of printed copies or the front cover or the label or the rarity of the record gives you more satisfaction than the actual music, but for me that can't be called 'listening to heavy metal'. It's more like collecting coins or stamps and it doesn't have much to do with the music.
Good against Evil, Evil sure to win

"It really didn't matter if they liked it or not, i was going to give it to them straight down their throats" -John Stewart

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great_knuthulhu
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Post#8 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:43 am

Nightsblood probably made too much sense in his last couple of posts. This thread will die due to an overload of "sense" :wink: Just adding a couple of thoughts here:

1. There are basically two ways you can go about collecting records
a) you can invest money
b) you can invest time

Investing money means you have to have at least some money left after paying for necessities (Some people define "necessities" differently than others though. I have a friend who lives on nothing else than knekkebrød and spaghetti for weeks after he's spent big on records). A lot of metal collectors probably don't have that much left after paying the rent and setting aside money for food.

Investing time means you have to make priorities. It means spending weekends wading through tons of garbage at flea markets and garage sales. This seems to be the more respected method among the collectors, and I can see why. Your time is the most valuable commodity you have.

My own collecting is done mostly through the Internet now since I live far away from most possible places to look for records. (Hello Arctic circle :) )
I do not spend huge amounts of time or money on buying metal records, but I think the "collector porn" thread is excellent. Getting to see the rare stuff other people have collected is nice and I don't really care how they got it. I'd love it if everyone posted pics in there of the really rare stuff they got.
I know I ain't doing much,
doing nothing means a lot to me.

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daniel
Posts: 1992

Post#9 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm

In the end getting so PC about this issue isn't of much interest to me, people are emotional and I don't want to carefully analyse each situation before responding. I do often regret things I say and feel embarrassed about them, also know my tone can come across overly negative, but I just type that way, I guess it's weird that I'm mostly pretty mellow in person, takes a lot to piss me off.

So as I said, I'm not going to be so incredibly objective when commenting on things here...even if I'll end up sounding like a douche ;) Most of the time I don't say what I really think anyway, I mean I hold back. There are records I think are crap and the fact they go for x amount is just ridiculous, I do not respect everyone equally, I don't feel some kinship with everyone that likes metal and I'm not going to be all high fives just cos 'people do things the way they want', if something seems stupid to me I'll rather say it than try to be Mr. Switzerland. BUT, often my remarks are admittedly pretty emotional and I might not feel the same the next day. However I'm not interested in putting on some facade.

The 'retarded' thing, well, I honestly don't care what the market price is, it's a high price even if it 'really isn't when taking into account x and y'; and this is the only real issue, that sometimes I just get bummed out at how much everything in life revolves around money, hah. In the past I did get this feeling of jealousy about certain records, but it's disappeared now, which is a relief... Yeah, some things just cost too much and it's 'stupid' to me, regardless of what the market says.

Yes it's true it's not fair to say someone is buying something simply because it's rare, that's assuming something I cannot know.

I've never grown up with money, it's always been a problem, so yes I bring my prejudice against people being 'better off' into metal as well, when it seems things are coming to people too easily, can't help it.

Also don't much like that record collecting has become some sort of science, where you keep track of ebay auctions and have to be alert all the time...got kind of burned out on that, there's nothing fun about it, just stressful so I've let it go.
Are you the tyrant, who cast them to the sea?
One day you'll be among the dead.

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Khnud
Posts: 2390

Post#10 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:55 pm

The only way of metal collecting I dislike is when people show off, i.e. try to come off as a tr00er, more important collector than yourself. A person who doesn't contribute to this forum (or other forums for that matter) in any other way except than to tell everyone registered that he has way more rare records than you, and can afford way more expensive items than you. That uses these forums solely for the sake of making everyone envious of his collection and/or financial capability. That pisses me off.

As for posting pictures/posts of recent metal finds, why not? This is a metal-related forum, isn't it? I mean, it's quite safe to suspect that other people might actually have some interest in what you buy. I've bought many records simply because I saw other people here bought them. And if lots of people here, who share the same taste as I do buy something (and like it), chances are I will too. Also, I absolutely love seeing pictures of other people's finds, except when the poster falls in the category listed above.

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LWR
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Post#11 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:45 pm

It's none of my business if someone pay 6,000sek or 60,000sek for a record,and it doesn't matter if it is a crap or a gem.
Everyone has their each budget and taste.
BUT,I konw some COLLECTORS buy "rare ones first,pass common records".
I doubt they does not love music,even if it surfacely seems they are die-hard metalheads.
Why pounce on RARE records? Because it's rare? Because other people don't have it? It shoud be because " I have enjoyed so many common records and really love this genre,so want to hear more even if it costs me much!",in my opinion.
There exists so many records to hear before trying Marquis De Sade or Scratch.
I sincerely recommend those people to try another 100 common records before paying $1,000 for 1 rare record.
"DON'T BREAK THE OATH"

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Keir
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Post#12 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:39 am

Wow, a lot to read here. I'll just comment on a few things:
nightsblood wrote:6- Other Strategies
???
Trading! Admittedly I don't really have time for it these days, but on a few occasions in the past I have been able to trade up. Always nice to turn some crap records you got cheap into a nice rarity you might not have been able to afford. (Especially true if the person you're trading with has the opposite opinion about said "crap" records! That way everyone's happy.)
nightsblood wrote:I clear any expensive records with the wife first :)
Hmmm... thanks for reminding me. My wife might not be too pleased that I just spent $160+ on a Drysill LP when we're trying to rebuild our garage! (Hey, that's still a good deal, right?)
nightsblood wrote:That said, my income has increased a lot in recent years, so I do spend more, and am willing to spend more on one particular item, than I used to. Dig through posts from 2006-7 and you'll find comments from me along the lines of, "I'm not sure I'd really enjoy an album if I paid more than $200 for it". At the time that was a huge amount of money to me. Now, not so much. My circumstances have changed, and for the right record I'll pay $200 and enjoy it just fine :)
I can certainly relate to that. I remember making a post a long time ago where I laughed at the idea of spending $500 on a record. I'm still not there yet, but it also doesn't seem so far fetched (in fact, I've bid that much on From The Fjords more than once, but never won the auction). What definitely has changed for me is how much I consider OK to spend without much thought. Years ago I had a limit of about $20 that I thought was "reasonable", and anything over that had to be something I really wanted, had been seeking for a long time, or I considered to be a bargain. Now that limit is more like $50.
nightsblood wrote:6- I really try to avoid buying stuff out of curiosity, on a lark, or that I'm not at all familiar with. Used to do this a lot, and as often as not the album turned out to be uninteresting. Now I save my money for stuff I'm pretty certain I'm gonna enjoy.
I'm quite different in that regard, and that is one reason I love compilations so much. It is so easy to hear anything on the internet these days that much of the mystique of buying a new record is gone. However, the more obscure compilations are still nearly impossible to find in mp3 form so there is always that element of surprise. I'm not saying I'll spend a lot on something I've never heard, but luckily many of these comps are really cheap.
nightsblood wrote:7- I don't 'broadcast' my recent finds. Call me a hoarding little troll, I just don't post that info. I do let some folks know when I get certain things that I think might interest them.
I love to read the "finds" threads, mainly because I enjoy seeing pictures of records I might not have seen before, or just seeing a bunch of cool records in one place. I assume others agree with me, so I contribute too.

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deathster
Posts: 467

Post#13 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:57 am

I think most of the guys here collect for their own purpose and share thier scores. This internet forum is maybe 3-4 years old, but we collected music related stuff already 10-15 yrs ago (before Internet and accusing of showing off), some guys here have probably collected 25 yrs or even more.

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msp
Posts: 1215

Post#14 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:47 am

This has probably been my best year for getting hold of rarities. This has mainly due to getting a good bonus at work and generally having a fair bit of disposable monthly income. Asd a result I have been able to pick up such things as ION BRITTON, CHILD SAINT, AXTON PRYTE, BLACK HOLE, TANTRUM. Normally I would not pay such sums but this year I can. These rarities were ones I specifically wanted. There are a few more I would like to own but I can't say I will just pay out willy-nilly for any old record labeled as "Private" or "Rare".

If someone has the cash and wants to spend out then I don't see an issue.

I probably mentioned this before, but my biggest issue this day - and I realise this is totally self-inflicted - is that I probably buy too much music and have reached saturation point. As a result I don't fully enjoy the listening experience. What I mean is that I will be playing XYZ record and I am thinking when does this end because i have another five records to get through as spare time becomes a scarcer commodity. I kind of miss the days when i was younger and I bought an album and would listen to it 20-30 times.
Remember kids, only high priced rarities are true...

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Khnud
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Post#15 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Isn't it ironic, that the more money you have to spend on a record, the less time you have left to listen to it?

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