Is it ever OK to sell a bootleg?

Glockose · Post by **Glockose** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:44 pm

Is there any time on these things?

OLD Black Sabbath, Slayer Vinyl...........

I see some folks yelling about Boot CD's and I understand but what about this Older stuff?

Reason.. I have a copy of the old White Cover Pagan Alter LP on ebay.
And someone from German keeps sending me emails on how I need to take it down at once since this is a boot. To me hell it's from the 80's
Do folks still care?...

Satan is Our Pal · Post by **Satan is Our Pal** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:50 pm

It depends on the band and what type of bootleg. For Cult old Metal bands I don't think you should have much of a problem, apart from a few Germans going nuts. Most of the bands would be made up to have an old bootleg from the 80's turn up, apart from Danzig who has a habbit of beating people up and destroying all the Misfits/Smhain/Danzig boots.

I may have a bid on that LP.

Glockose · Post by **Glockose** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:54 pm

Well.
The new email I got said it was reported to Ebay.
So it may be coming down.

I never sell boots. I just really didn't think of this as a BOOTLEG.
I remember when it came out, for about 10 years no one really know if it was a boot or not. as it was done by the Doom/Peace Records guy..

Levi · Post by **Levi** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:56 pm

Copyright lasts for 70 years after the death of the author, I think it's the same in the US. Since Alan and Terry aren't dead yet, this is still as illegal as it gets.

I know who sent you the e-mail, because the band have been trying to block Marshall Levy (the one who did this bootleg amongst a load of other bootlegs and rip offs) producing and selling these since the mid 90's when they were pressed (there's a black cover version too). They never gave permission and never saw a cent. Plus, the quality is a third generation tape rip. These bootlegs are the reason they put out Volume 1 on CD in '98, to avoid people getting ripped off (because most people think this is a genuine 80's record and pay loads of money for it, but there never was a vinyl record of this in the 80's, only a tape).

I hope you understand why they want to see it removed. They are registered with the VERO program of Ebay, so if you don't remove it, Ebay probably will.

Glockose · Post by **Glockose** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:59 pm

I am not tring to get away with anything... I just dont understand.

Levi · Post by **Levi** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:08 pm

I know, I told 'em you probably weren't aware of this as I know you're a stand up guy. Therefore I explained it, because I understand this might come off rude if you aren't aware you're doing something illegal. Certainly with Doom/Peace records where some is legal and most illegal.

By the way, you edited your last post, but copyright in the US is also 70 years post mortem, as it is in Europe. Wasn't 100% sure because I only know our system in detail, but I looked it up (http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.pdf). A century ago you had a registration system I believe, but now creation of a work automaticly protects it.

hload · Post by **hload** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:23 pm

sir, i'll bite and i reply. i also bought it from him when it was "released", with some other vinyls-thankfully-original ones. the whole pentagram/pagan altar thingie is going on before internet days. i'm suprised that you never knew about it.

also,sir, you have my sympathy for this bad happening. from the millions of boots out there, you tried to sell one(don't remember if you sold the kraken one) and the internet police found you. perhaps you could send one to this dude.

Glockose · Post by **Glockose** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:24 pm

Thank you .
I just ended the auction -- No Problem

But Please let these folks know. They ARE very rude.
If they came to me and let me know what was going on I would have ended it, with no questions.

But sending multable nasty email was not needed.

"End this now you bootlegger, I reported you, Die"

"please pull the auction out at once. item has been reported already!"
I guess this one did say please.

Uncalled for.

Glockose · Post by **Glockose** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:26 pm

hload wrote:sir, i'll bite and i reply. i also bought it from him when it was "released", with some other vinyls-thankfully-original ones. the whole pentagram/pagan altar thingie is going on before internet days. i'm suprised that you never knew about it.

also,sir, you have my sympathy for this bad happening. from the millions of boots out there, you tried to sell one(don't remember if you sold the kraken one) and the internet police found you. perhaps you could send one to this dude.

I didn't say "I DIDN'T KNOW" it was a boot.
Just didn't think anyone cared

Levi · Post by **Levi** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:32 pm

glockose wrote:Thank you .
I just ended the auction -- No Problem

But Please let these folks know. They ARE very rude.
If they came to me and let me know what was going on I would have ended it, with no questions.

But sending multable nasty email was not needed.

"End this now you bootlegger, I reported you, Die"

"please pull the auction out at once. item has been reported already!"
I guess this one did say please.

Uncalled for.

Thanks John, I don't find this the right way either, told them already.

nightsblood · Post by **nightsblood** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:54 pm

Amazing. You have these russian and greek rip-off artists selling hundreds-thousands of boots on ebay all the time, and John gets yelled at for listing one! THIS is why ebay management is ridiculed so much

As to the original question, John has a good point. The band has since released the album themselves and it has (I think) gone out of print. No copy re-sold on ebay- boot or not- puts any money into the bands; pockets. As far as I'm concerned, this is no different from selling a used copy of the legit 'Volume 1' version of the recordings.
-If 'Vol 1' were still in print, the complaint would be legit.
-If John were pressing copies himself and selling them the complaint would be legit.

As for the argument that some people mistakenly believe this is a legit record, I have 2 words- BUYER BEWARE! The Buyer is always responsible for knowing what they are purchasing. 15 years ago this complaint may have had some weight, but in this day and age it's very easy to double check the authenticity of an item like this one. Don't come crying to me if you buy something and then feel that you got cheated- do your homework BEFORE making the purchase.

IMO, if the band feels this strongly about their rights being violated, they should focus their efforts on taking legal action against Doom/Peace, who is the actual bootlegger, rather than looking to bully and intimidate individual sellers listing one copy of the album some 15 or more years after the boot was made. Go get the actual scumbag who made the records and made money off your work instead of bullying an individual who has 1 old copy with threats of "I'm gonna tell Ebay on you!". Attacking the individual instead of confronting the actual bootlegger reeks of cowardice.

I'm obviously not as anti-bootleg as some folks, and I've noticed that some folks that vocally complain about boots also own at least a few of them

hload · Post by **hload** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:55 pm

glockose wrote:
hload wrote:sir, i'll bite and i reply. i also bought it from him when it was "released", with some other vinyls-thankfully-original ones. the whole pentagram/pagan altar thingie is going on before internet days. i'm suprised that you never knew about it.

also,sir, you have my sympathy for this bad happening. from the millions of boots out there, you tried to sell one(don't remember if you sold the kraken one) and the internet police found you. perhaps you could send one to this dude.
I didn't say "I DIDN'T KNOW" it was a boot.
Just didn't think anyone cared

my bad,sir. well, to be honest, i never expected you to sell stuff like this, even if it's all at buyer's free will. but of course this won't change my mind for you. i have the feeling also that you bought it without knowing that it was a boot. thankfully i never was a big stone bunny/macabre/death row/bedemon/pentagram/anything else i forgot/ fan, otherwise i would have sent a big check to this guy, after he sent me by snail mail his "catalog".

Khnud · Post by **Khnud** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:03 pm

In all fairness, someone should report all those stores/shops who sell Phoenix Records bootlegs. People seem to think they are legit, and they're not.

I don't mind if a seller has one boot for sale occasionally, but some finance their entire eBay existence on bootlegs, and that's just wrong.

Levi · Post by **Levi** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:32 pm

It's all a bit of a misunderstanding really. It's not the band who contacted John, but a fan. He thought he was Marshall Levy (the bootlegger) operating under a new alias (as he has 10+ ebay accounts). I don't think this was the right way to act, but that's me.

They tried to stop M.L. before, but a lawsuit for an English band in the US is too costly. So blocking his sales on ebay is something that can be done.

Vol. 1 and all other PA albums are still in print by the way, to avoid people having to pay ridiculous prices for the albums. Buried between Time and Dust will be releasing Judgement of the Dead/Vol1 and Time Lord on vinyl again, because the initial presses are being sold for 100+ euros. They want to keep it in print this time to avoid ebay madness.

Black Axe · Post by **Black Axe** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:21 pm

I don't think it would be a problem if it's an quite old release and the material is really rare(never saw an official reissue), and if you clearly mention it's a bootleg/not an official release.