Conspiracy theories:Who really wrote Headless Cross and TYR?

Prowler · Post by **Prowler** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:11 pm

ION BRITTON wrote:
Prowler wrote:
Lama wrote:
Important or not, all Sabbath-albums with Tony are worth spending your money on. Check out "Headless Cross" and "Tyr" first. You have good taste in metal, I can't imagine you not liking them
Dito that! The best vocalist they ever had ...
Not only this, but for me those two are the best material they ever recorded and among my best 10 metal albums of all times. I really can't imagine myself without having heard Headless Cross and TYR. I could write a small essay for each track included there. Proud, mystical epic metal at its finest.

Especially "TYR" is an album that I have doubts that Tony Iommi wrote it alone as it absolutely doesn't fit to him, it's just too great for them compared with earlier works (excluding "Headless cross"), completely different. Does anyone know if any other musicians had written "TYR" for Sabbath?? I just have problems to accept it came out of Iommi's hands ...

daniel · Post by **daniel** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:00 pm

What an absurd idea. "Too great for them", sorry, one of the dumbest things I've heard about Sabbath... Also, you think after all the albums they'd done, suddenly Iommi would have someone else write one for them????

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:10 pm

Who do you think wrote it then??

Prowler · Post by **Prowler** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:53 pm

No idea, but it does not sound like "usual" Sabbath albums. And well known bands/artists like Alice Cooper, Kiss (wanted to steal Pentagram's "Star lady" in trade for a "good word" for an album deal with their label Casablanca Records but Liebling refused) and who the hell do I know - Robby Williams - have producers who write music for them and the band just performs the music. It's not a secret ... Alice Cooper had even Jon Bon Jovi writing stuff for him, just as example. In some cases if the original composer/band would record/release a certain album it would never reach the success that it has reached sung/recorded by the band/artist who actually got famous with it. Prince was such an important songwriter for a hell of other artists ... that does not mean I suggest Prince has written "TYR" just in case any guy wants to put that in my mouth and I know that will happen! It was not the artist formely known as Prince!

Prowler · Post by **Prowler** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:58 pm

daniel wrote:What an absurd idea. "Too great for them", sorry, one of the dumbest things I've heard about Sabbath... Also, you think after all the albums they'd done, suddenly Iommi would have someone else write one for them????

Compare the other albums with "TYR" I say, does not fit to Iommi's style. Not more not less ... it's not dumb, I just don't believe what someone else wants me to think. I have ears, little Metal detectors, and I know how to use em ...

daniel · Post by **daniel** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:10 pm

Makes about as much sense as contending "Mob Rules" and "Heaven and Hell" were written by someone else since they sound so different from the 70's stuff.

Does this sound like "usual" Sabbath as well?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1VT67GnkSM

Yeah I guess that besides being absurd I find your accusation somewhat disrespectful of the band.

Btw, the Kiss/Pentagram song thing turned out to be nothing more than a story as far as I know.

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:13 pm

I don't know.. this concept of yours, which I encounter for the very first time, sounds really crazy to me. Who the hell would write this kind of music for someone else and wouldn't want to get any credit? It's not some mainstream shit that Desmond child would have written for someone else.. it's epic metal for god's sake, you don't sit down to compose songs about Tyr and Valhalla for someone else or expecting to be the next hit on the radio. I don't know anyone who's done such thing anyway....In this logic neither Heaven and Hell is written by Iommi since it sounds very different (and much better for many people) compared to their previous albums. Sabbath approached a more metallic and epic sound in the 80s and Headless Cross and Tyr are the natural evolution (and pinnacle as well) of that style. If the riffing on tracks like When death calls or Sabbath Stones isn't written by Iommi himself neither is anything Sabbath recorded up until that time.

Prowler · Post by **Prowler** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:25 pm

daniel wrote: Btw, the Kiss/Pentagram song thing turned out to be nothing more than a story as far as I know.

Told by Bobby Liebling himself ... so in your own words I find it very disrespectful to call Bobby Liebling a liar. ha ha

daniel · Post by **daniel** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:28 pm

Did you watch the latest documentary? There was talk of the KISS meet there as well.

daniel · Post by **daniel** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:30 pm

Maybe this -Iommi didn't write any of the songs on "Tyr"- could become a persistent underground metal conspiracy. A cult should be formed around this idea.

Prowler · Post by **Prowler** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:31 pm

ION BRITTON wrote:I don't know.. this concept of yours, which I encounter for the very first time, sounds really crazy to me. Who the hell would write this kind of music for someone else and wouldn't want to get any credit? It's not some mainstream shit that Desmond child would have written for someone else.. it's epic metal for god's sake, you don't sit down to compose songs about Tyr and Valhalla for someone else or expecting to be the next hit on the radio. I don't know anyone who's done such thing anyway....In this logic neither Heaven and Hell is written by Iommi since it sounds very different (and much better for many people) compared to their previous albums. Sabbath approached a more metallic and epic sound in the 80s and Headless Cross and Tyr are the natural evolution (and pinnacle as well) of that style. If the riffing on tracks like When death calls or Sabbath Stones isn't written by Iommi himself neither is anything Sabbath recorded up until that time.

They never recorded any album that's half equally to "TYR" so that's why I had that idea. And if you are a studio musician there's only money that counts. If they pay you 10000 $ for shutting up or even more, why wouldn't you do so? I would, I know it's MY MUSIC, doesn't matters what others think, I know it, that's enough. See the Milli Vanilla scandal. I hate to always come up with Pop music examples, but everything is possible. The original Milli Vanilli vocalists got not even 1/10 of the money that the "stars" got in the end and noone knows their names.

daniel · Post by **daniel** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:34 pm

See above ^^^...

Cochino · Post by **Cochino** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:36 pm

It's a well known fact that Liebling's stories are 90% bullshit, like that one about him stealing a bunch of money (or was it drugs) from a mob boss or stuff like that. Actually, if it was told by Liebling himself then that's more of a reason to doubt about it.

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:06 pm

Prowler wrote:
ION BRITTON wrote:I don't know.. this concept of yours, which I encounter for the very first time, sounds really crazy to me. Who the hell would write this kind of music for someone else and wouldn't want to get any credit? It's not some mainstream shit that Desmond child would have written for someone else.. it's epic metal for god's sake, you don't sit down to compose songs about Tyr and Valhalla for someone else or expecting to be the next hit on the radio. I don't know anyone who's done such thing anyway....In this logic neither Heaven and Hell is written by Iommi since it sounds very different (and much better for many people) compared to their previous albums. Sabbath approached a more metallic and epic sound in the 80s and Headless Cross and Tyr are the natural evolution (and pinnacle as well) of that style. If the riffing on tracks like When death calls or Sabbath Stones isn't written by Iommi himself neither is anything Sabbath recorded up until that time.
They never recorded any album that's half equally to "TYR" so that's why I had that idea. And if you are a studio musician there's only money that counts. If they pay you 10000 $ for shutting up or even more, why wouldn't you do so? I would, I know it's MY MUSIC, doesn't matters what others think, I know it, that's enough. See the Milli Vanilla scandal. I hate to always come up with Pop music examples, but everything is possible. The original Milli Vanilli vocalists got not even 1/10 of the money that the "stars" got in the end and noone knows their names.

Well, a small detail there, for YOU they haven't written anything else half as good as TYR, for other people they may have or they may have done even better. Either way this doesn't necessarily justify this idea of yours. Just because a band that you seemingly didn't hold in very high regard recorded at some point an album that took you by storm doesn't mean that it's not their own product. I could give many examples of bands who put out their best album at a later point in their career, there isn't always a conspiracy behind each case, it would be absurd to believe this...
Everything is possible indeed. Maybe an ancient race came in contact with Iommi and gave him those great ideas. Who knows.

mordred · Post by **mordred** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:46 pm

A ton of people have written for Sabbath over the years, Iommi has always written together with others. Around the time of "Tyr" Neil Murray, Cozy Powell, Geoff Nicholls and Tony Martin all contributed music and/or lyrics. And of course Tony Iommi wrote lots of it too, but the Sabbath sound has changed over the years because he has written together with different musicians in different lineups.