Conspiracy theories:Who really wrote Headless Cross and TYR?

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Prowler
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Post by Prowler »

daniel wrote:JESUS. CHRIST. You have not been proven right. Most songs were band efforts, right from the first fucking demo in the 60's, you IDIOT.
Those who are too stupid to think and find arguments to disprove someone elses theory step by step in a logical way are using words that you are using to make others thinking that he's right. There's a nice proverb: Who's yelling, is always right!

PS: I might be wrong but you seem to have a huge personal problem. I just wonder if you're showing that attitude in real life too (attacking everyone who does not agree with your law) or do you just feel strong behind your monitor ... :wink:
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daniel
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Post by daniel »

You're the one that has ignored several other points brought up.

In "real life" I don't often get worked up so easily, but what you're doing, yeah I'd get annoyed. I don't know why you feel a need to bring up physical attributes, comes off passive-aggressive, also because it requires some response, but no I'm not meek in person.
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Cochino
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Post by Cochino »

Iommi was never the sole writer of Black Sabbath songs but he always was a main part of the composition teams. That's why the music changes with time and new members but there's also a core that remains recognizable. It's just as simple as that.
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mordred
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Post by mordred »

daniel wrote:JESUS. CHRIST. You have not been proven right. Most songs were band efforts, right from the first fucking demo in the 60's, you IDIOT.
Yes, band effort, which is not the same as Iommi's effort and has as of yet not been defied by anybody. You should listen more and do less shouting.

Take a look again at what Prowler originally wrote:
Prowler wrote:Especially "TYR" is an album that I have doubts that Tony Iommi wrote it alone
He's right Tony Iommi didn't write it alone and I think you know that too so I don't really get why you need to be at his throat.
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daniel
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Post by daniel »

"Too good for Sabbath", never said anything ridiculous like that did he...
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Avenger
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Post by Avenger »

I think we can all agree that even though Iommi was an essential part of the band, through his career in Black Sabbath he didn't write every single piece of music in it's entirety
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ION BRITTON
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Post by ION BRITTON »

The way Prowler wrote it implied that Iommi's contribution to the music was so little that even if he didn't write anything the result would more or less sound the same as it actually does now. He even implied that Iommi paid someone else to compose the whole thing. Mordred on the other hand said that Sabbath's sound was affected by the line-up change each time and while I agree to a certain point with this it doesn't clarify how great the contribution of the main man was. We are talking here as if Iommi wrote only a couple of notes and the rest is the work of others. Apart from that Prowler clearly said that he can't accept the fact that HC and TYR are Black Sabbath albums and thus gave us his 'logical' explanation about those two albums, so maybe the problem here is not whether Iommi contributed 20% or 80% to the music.
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mordred
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Post by mordred »

daniel wrote:"Too good for Sabbath", never said anything ridiculous like that did he...
Too good, not good enough, as good as usual, who cares. How old are you, twelve?
ION BRITTON wrote:The way Prowler wrote it implied that Iommi's contribution to the music was so little that even if he didn't write anything the result would more or less sound the same as it actually does now. He even implied that Iommi paid someone else to compose the whole thing.
I'm sorry but it sounds like you're making this up. Or jumping to conclusions too fast perhaps? What you're describing has little to no bearing on what he actually wrote.

To me it sounded like he was under the not so uncommon assumption that Tony Iommi was the sole supreme composer in Black Sabbath at least since Geezer left, which may not be that far fetched since he was the only original member, and with how Tyr sounded compared to other works he found it hard to believe Iommi wrote it alone (his exact words). Which is true, Iommi didn't write it alone.

In fact Tyr is a perfect example to bring up this issue. The album is more of a band team effort than any other album since Geezer left. Bear in mind it was the first time since Mob Rules that the same lineup (save Murray) did two albums in a row (Mob Rules was except Appice). The five of them created Tyr from scratch, nobody was replaced along the way and nobody came in late.

How much of the music Iommi created is not really the question at hand and to know a rough percentage we would have had to be present in their rehearsal room and studio. From what members have told about the writing sessions for this and other Sabbath projects we can safely assume he came up with most, possibly all, guitar riffs, but certainly no lyrics and almost certainly no vocal melodies.
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ION BRITTON
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Post by ION BRITTON »

I'm sorry but that's what I get from these posts.
Prowler wrote:Does anyone know if any other musicians had written "TYR" for Sabbath?? I just have problems to accept it came out of Iommi's hands ...
Prowler wrote:Compare the other albums with "TYR" I say, does not fit to Iommi's style.
Prowler wrote:They never recorded any album that's half equally to "TYR" so that's why I had that idea. And if you are a studio musician there's only money that counts. If they pay you 10000 $ for shutting up or even more, why wouldn't you do so?
Prowler wrote:I don't like the fact that "Headless cross" and "TYR" are Sabbath album
This is probably closer to the truth and that's why I said that his contribution is much greater than it is implied in Prowler's posts who's constantly trying to minimize the importance of Iommi's writing skills
mordred wrote:From what members have told about the writing sessions for this and other Sabbath projects we can safely assume he came up with most, possibly all, guitar riffs, but certainly no lyrics and almost certainly no vocal melodies
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mordred
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Post by mordred »

@ION BRITTON

I'm numbering the quotes you picked 1-4 from top to bottom to address them.

1. He's asking if any other musicians besides Iommi had written Tyr. The answer is yes, there were four other musicians contributing to the writing.

2. To value this quote one needs to know what Prowler considers "Iommi's style". This quote is probably based on an assumption that Iommi has written most everything for Sabbath in the past, hence "Iommi's style".

3. This quote has two points. That Tyr is superior to everything else Sabbath is just an opinion and doesn't matter. The point about money for studio musicians was provoked after other users were at his throat and said it was impossible any secret ghost writer wrote for Sabbath (which he never specifically claimed) because everybody would have known about. Prowler was just questioning if it was really so impossible, which was justified. There is no reason to believe any secret ghost writer was involved in the making of Tyr, but that's another matter.

4. I don't know what this has to do with anything. Lots of people don't like that. I got several friends who don't like the fact albums without Ozzy are considered Sabbath.

To me it sounds like you're being over protective of Iommi's Metal God status although it's not really being questioned. I don't see how anybody has tried to minimize Iommi's writing skills. Prowler started from an assumption Iommi had written all of Tyr by himself and wondered if that could really be the case. If anything, he thought more of Iommi as a writer, not less.
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ION BRITTON
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Post by ION BRITTON »

Well, what I'm trying to protect is the importance of Iommi's contribution to the making of the music of Black Sabbath which is being degraded. I have no gods, metal or not.

The band didn't jump from Black Sabbath s/t album to TYR in a single year. Their style evolved progressively over a period of 20 years with the biggest change being from Never Say Die to Heaven and Hell. Nothing similar was commented on this even though me and daniel stressed the point several times. Iommi was from the beginning the major contributor to the instrumental part of the music. From the s/t album to Forbidden. Prowler doesn't want to acknowledge this fact and he can't accept that a band which was mediocre for him until that point released something that he liked very much, that's the reason of my 4th quote of him and it has lot to do with the explanations given from his part about how HC and TYR were written.
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mordred
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Post by mordred »

ION BRITTON wrote:Well, what I'm trying to protect is the importance of Iommi's contribution to the making of the music of Black Sabbath which is being degraded.
It's not being degraded.
ION BRITTON wrote:Iommi was from the beginning the major contributor to the instrumental part of the music. From the s/t album to Forbidden. Prowler doesn't want to acknowledge this fact
You're making stuff up again! Don't you see it? What you're saying about him is not true. Reality check: He said "I have doubts Tony Iommi wrote it alone". How does that not acknowledge Tony Iommi as a song writer? Especially seeing as his "doubts" were correct.
ION BRITTON wrote:... it has lot to do with the explanations given from his part about how HC and TYR were written.
He has not given any "explanations" he just asked if maybe somebody else besides Iommi wrote Tyr and for some reason that made some people lose it completely. :roll:
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ION BRITTON
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Post by ION BRITTON »

I have no intention of keeping this up by quoting him and analyzing him again. Please read again his posts in their entirety. He didn't just 'ask' for other people's opinion, he said his own one as well. Maybe you take everything that's being written literally, for me the idea behind his posts is that Iommi couldn't have been so great as a songwriter to have (even partly) composed an album such as TYR and that's degrading enough.
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Post by Black Axe »

ION BRITTON wrote:Their style evolved progressively over a period of 20 years with the biggest change being from Never Say Die to Heaven and Hell.
I always thought the change was bigger from Technical Ecstasy to Never Say Die than from NSD to Heaven And Hell. TE still sounds like a (slightly out of form) Sabbath and Never Say Die sounds like WTF, did I get the wrong LP in my sleeve?

The style of Headless Cross and Tyr is already evident in the heavier tracks of The Seventh Star, so I'd say it's fairly save to conclude Iommi had a major say in writing those albums.
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mordred
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Post by mordred »

This new thread title is silly because there is no conspiracy theory and never was one.

I read everything again and I still se the same thing: daniel lost his mind for no reason at all and just went completely rabies which happens on occasion over even the smallest issues so nevermind that. You kept a far more polite tone of course but you still put things into Prowler's mouth he never said and didn't really seem to pay attention to what he was writing, hence all chances of a fulfilling discussion went out the window. Even your last post, particularly the end of it, suggests Prowler has written things inside your head he never wrote on the forum. Maybe just a misunderstanding or whatever but I honestly think you're being overly hostile for no good reason.

I don't even see how even the prospect of an outside non member writing could have been touchy. It has happened before in Sabbath, most notably with Bob Daisley who was a pure hired gun studio musician who wrote a great deal of lyrics and melodies for The Eternal Idol. There was no such thing going on with Tyr but for somebody who's not lectured in the complicated chronology of events that was Black Sabbath the question is certainly not sacrilegious, not even far fetched.
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