Can someone be a collector and a metalhead at the same time?

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LethylSteel
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Post by LethylSteel »

nightsblood wrote: If I find a member of HAWT CHEEKZ today and he offers to sell me his last 2 copies of their old "Hawt in the Crackz' single for $5 each, am I obligated to tell him they're worth $200 each? IMO no, I am not obligated to do so. The exception would be if I told him flat-out that the records were worth nothing, knowing I could turn around and sell them easily for $200 apiece. Lying is one thing, but buying/selling something for an outrageous price (high or low) doesn't mean you did something dirty IMO.
One example from my side; once I found a local german Metal act at ebay offering a private 7" which I won for 4 E or so and right after I've recieved it and saw that the seller was the bass player I told him to not sell these few copies left he had belowe a certain price.
Another german local act I came across ebay with actually the same story like above, the guy has sent me a another free copy after telling him what it's worth. And that free copy I've sent to a canadian friend for free of course. :wink:
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Khnud
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Post by Khnud »

It's quite easy to tell a band member to sell his remaining copies for a huge amount when you've already bought a copy dirt cheap.
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LethylSteel
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Post by LethylSteel »

Khnud wrote:It's quite easy to tell a band member to sell his remaining copies for a huge amount when you've already bought a copy dirt cheap.
Not a huge amount, it was a human price, not below 15 E!
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ION BRITTON
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Post by ION BRITTON »

Even if I don't agree on every single line you wrote there, I must admit that's a great post, nightsblood.

Basically, like you've said, it's a matter of definition. And a lot of things we're discussing depend on the definition we give.

This is for example is not exactly what I have in mind when I think of metalheads
nightsblood wrote:metalheads (i.e., people who enjoy metal music)
My sister has 2 compilation cds with 40 metal/hard rock songs that she actually listens to quite often. I tell you she's really enjoying those tracks. Is she a metalhead? No.

Even though I speak only for myself, I'm afraid I will sound preachy and holier-than-thou to most people here so I'll keep it short: being a metalhead is not only a matter of music. It's also the general attitude you have in your life, it's about values, vision and personal strength. I just can't seperate the music one listens to with the things he's doing and the way he's acting in real life. It is not something entirely different and those two must be in a relative harmony. It doesn't make sense otherwise. At least not for me. I'm not saying that I succeed in doing it every single second of the day, but I know I try. Anyway, this is what I believe and having it in mind, I get along in my life.
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ION BRITTON
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Post by ION BRITTON »

Khnud wrote:
Piotr Sargnagel wrote:
ION BRITTON wrote:If that guy knew the price of the LP and never told the band anything about it or he didn't try in some way to play it fair by for example giving them a percentage of what he sold later (I assume at least 20x the price he bought them), that's downright fucking dirty for me. I understand not everyone sees it this way, but that's how I do.

Created a new topic, btw.
Ok I totally understand now. Yes, tactics like that really are dirty.
I honestly cannot understand this. So it's always the buyer's obligation to tell the seller how much the item is worth? Hardly. Outright lying is dirty, but accepting a seller's set price, or offering a below market value price to someone who has no clue about the market value isn't necessarily dirty.
You're forgetting one thing: Not all band members are active or any sort of sellers/dealers neither they care about the music they made 30 years ago. They may not care about any kind of music at all. What does also a 'below market value' mean? Leather Nunns go for $1000, if you find the band and get them for $850, that's below market value and obviously the band knows a thing or two about it. Getting them for $10 each on the other hand is still below market value, but obviously the band doesn't have a clue about it. And you go and tell 'em what on this case? 'Thanks a lot, guys, that was a great deal, hope you enjoy the money you made'
The people who buy records this way usually approach the bands as real fans, mind you. So, I'm asking you is that what real fans do for their favorites bands? They buy their rare albums for peanuts while knowing that the band itself didn't make a single penny back in the day and then they sell them at 10x the buying price and get all the money for themselves? Does this sound OK to you? Because to me it sure as hell doesn't.

On the other hand, pro dealers and sellers should necessarily do their homework before they sell something. Information is easily obtainable these days and it's their fault if they don't do a research about an item they don't know a thing about. But like I've said, not all people who are related to metal are as deep as we are in the metal market or are aware of the things we are and so on. They don't deserve the same fate with those who are simply doing it to earn money when they are caught in the hands of some greedy collector/'fan'.
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Post by Piotr Sargnagel »

I agree with ION and with Khnud. I think it depends on the circumstance. Buying a bargain from someone who sells records is one thing but buying from the band who made the music at a knock-down price just doesn't appear fair somehow. The artists should get something for their work. And buying a number of items from a band and then selling them to make a huge profit seems a bit unethical to me. It's profiting from the band's ignorance. But on the other hand, who hasn't quietly handed over the insignificant amount of cash for the item that's worth much more??
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Khnud
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Post by Khnud »

ION BRITTON wrote:You're forgetting one thing: Not all band members are active or any sort of sellers/dealers neither they care about the music they made 30 years ago. They may not care about any kind of music at all. What does also a 'below market value' mean? Leather Nunns go for $1000, if you find the band and get them for $850, that's below market value and obviously the band knows a thing or two about it. Getting them for $10 each on the other hand is still below market value, but obviously the band doesn't have a clue about it. And you go and tell 'em what on this case? 'Thanks a lot, guys, that was a great deal, hope you enjoy the money you made'
The people who buy records this way usually approach the bands as real fans, mind you. So, I'm asking you is that what real fans do for their favorites bands? They buy their rare albums for peanuts while knowing that the band itself didn't make a single penny back in the day and then they sell them at 10x the buying price and get all the money for themselves? Does this sound OK to you? Because to me it sure as hell doesn't.
I've never offered $10 for a $850 record, so I can't relate to that. And I've never sold anything for 10x the profit, not even for x3 the profit. I'm not a record dealer. What I have done on occasion, is to buy something from a band member who was a) delighted to actually get something in return because the band hardly sold any copies back in the day, b) thrilled to see the band had a a fan over in Europe, and c) grateful for the trip down memory lane crawling up to the attic or diving down in the basement to find a few forgotten things from an age long past. I refuse to feel guilty or dirty for that.

We have to remember that to some, money isn't the key factor. They're more than content in knowing their record ends up with someone who enjoys it. Even if you tell them they could probably get 10 times as much if sold on ebay, they first have to register an account, build some knowledge on how to grade, package and ship items internationally, etc. And for what? First copies might sell higher than the previous offer, then the market's saturated and the price drops to the offered level. It's not worth it to some.
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Post by Priamos »

ION BRITTON wrote:
Even though I speak only for myself, I'm afraid I will sound preachy and holier-than-thou to most people here so I'll keep it short: being a metalhead is not only a matter of music. It's also the general attitude you have in your life, it's about values, vision and personal strength. I just can't seperate the music one listens to with the things he's doing and the way he's acting in real life. It is not something entirely different and those two must be in a relative harmony. It doesn't make sense otherwise. At least not for me. I'm not saying that I succeed in doing it every single second of the day, but I know I try. Anyway, this is what I believe and having it in mind, I get along in my life.
Damn you Ion Britton!!! :lol: You said it much better than I ever could!! My presence here is not necessary anymore!! I'll go out to have a nice cheesecake instead!! :lol:
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ION BRITTON
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Post by ION BRITTON »

Khnud wrote:
ION BRITTON wrote:You're forgetting one thing: Not all band members are active or any sort of sellers/dealers neither they care about the music they made 30 years ago. They may not care about any kind of music at all. What does also a 'below market value' mean? Leather Nunns go for $1000, if you find the band and get them for $850, that's below market value and obviously the band knows a thing or two about it. Getting them for $10 each on the other hand is still below market value, but obviously the band doesn't have a clue about it. And you go and tell 'em what on this case? 'Thanks a lot, guys, that was a great deal, hope you enjoy the money you made'
The people who buy records this way usually approach the bands as real fans, mind you. So, I'm asking you is that what real fans do for their favorites bands? They buy their rare albums for peanuts while knowing that the band itself didn't make a single penny back in the day and then they sell them at 10x the buying price and get all the money for themselves? Does this sound OK to you? Because to me it sure as hell doesn't.
I've never offered $10 for a $850 record, so I can't relate to that. And I've never sold anything for 10x the profit, not even for x3 the profit. I'm not a record dealer. What I have done on occasion, is to buy something from a band member who was a) delighted to actually get something in return because the band hardly sold any copies back in the day, b) thrilled to see the band had a a fan over in Europe, and c) grateful for the trip down memory lane crawling up to the attic or diving down in the basement to find a few forgotten things from an age long past. I refuse to feel guilty or dirty for that.
I didn't say that you personally have done any of the things I described above. The examples with the prices I gave are not real, but hopefully you got the idea. Money is not the key factor to all and I understand if someone sincerely says that he likes the band's music and they send him a copy, even for free. However I don't see in what way they could enjoy it when someone likes to buy 5 crates full of copies of their albums all for himself.
The technical side of how to sell a record needs more parameters. You could be right under certain circumstances, under some others you might not be. I didn't say anywhere in my posts that what I say is the golden rule that applies to each and every case. I said that these things like that have happened AS WELL.
Anyway, I don't see something wrong with the things you've done with your purchases, but that's not important because I'm in no way the ultimate judge, jury and executioner of all things metal, it doesn't mean that when I consider something 'dirty' or 'clean' all others should consider it the same way too, I think I've put some emphasis on this already. Bottom line is, regardless whether we agree or not, you really feel OK with what you've done? Then it's fine by me. Be yourselves and good luck to everyone with his purchases.
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Khnud
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Post by Khnud »

ION BRITTON wrote:I didn't say that you personally have done any of the things I described above.
It was probably the "Does this sound OK to you?"-statement that got me into thinking it was somehow directed at me. :wink:

Never mind, I do get your point on unscrupulous collectors/dealers etc.
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LethylSteel
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Post by LethylSteel »

ION BRITTON wrote: They buy their rare albums for peanuts while knowing that the band itself didn't make a single penny back in the day and then they sell them at 10x the buying price and get all the money for themselves? Does this sound OK to you? Because to me it sure as hell doesn't.
Exactly, that was my intention. One of these 2 bands still had almost the complete edition of the 7" "in stock" so that means they've paid a fortune to press it in the 80's but NEVER got that money back. Now while throwing out the rest of the stock for 1 E this wouldn't change at all. On the other hand many criminal collectors do know what it's worth nowadays and would buy the whole edition for nothing while re-selling it later at ebay or somewhere JUST IN ORDER TO MAKE PROFIT that seriously belongs to the band is criminal to me. That's why I told them to not sell copies below 15 E which is an affordable price for everyone who is interested to hear that band. I could have done that myself ... but didn't! :!:
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nightsblood
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Post by nightsblood »

LethylSteel wrote: many criminal collectors do know what it's worth nowadays and would buy the whole edition for nothing while re-selling it later at ebay or somewhere JUST IN ORDER TO MAKE PROFIT that seriously belongs to the band is criminal to me.
I respectfully disagree. The band could have put the records on ebay themselves rather than sell the entire stock to one person for a small amount. I understand why you think the buyer did something underhanded, but the band could have put them on ebay and made the money themselves, so it's their fault if they sold all their copies in bulk for a cheap price.

Apollo: Wanna buy a stamp collection? Will trade stamps for metal records :)

Chat: HAWT CHEEKZ was already tracked down and no copies have turned up in a long time- don't expect to see one anytime soon :wink: There are much better singles to look for anyway. TRYKZY LYKKR's "bawlyn chayne b/w slykk chykkz' is twice as good IMO, though unfortunately it's just as rare :(

Ion- Your definition of 'metalhead' is different than mine, which is fine, and it explains your POV on this subject. Just to provide some context for my own POV: I grew up in a rural area of the US in the late 80s. Thus, there was no metal scene at all, and most of the bands I like now were already long gone by the time I got into metal seriously. Ive never lived in an area with good access to concerts, and even the colleges I attended never had any semblance of a metal scene around them, so I never got into the 'metal as a way of life' type of fandom; I was never exposed to it. Thus, while I'm a fan of many bands, I've never felt any close, personal attachment to bands on an individual basis.
In the poor, rural area of the US I grew up in, 'horse trading' was a common activity; I was trading coins and toys by the time I was 8 years old. I spent summers at flea markets selling comic books off the tailgate of a pickup truck. You learned early to watch your step or you'd get ripped off. When I was about 7 years old my parents had a yard sale and some old lady tried to rip me off by giving me a quarter for something that my parents wanted $5 for. My own grandma ripped a little kid off; his dad had a piece of antique glass for sale at a flea market. Granny didn't want to pay his price for it, so she waited until he went to the bathroom, then hurried over and talked his 10-year-old kid into selling it to her much cheaper, then she took it and ran before daddy got back to his booth. In that relatively impoverished environment, $5 was a lot to many people, so you know the seller was out to get as much $$ as possible, and the buyer was out to spend as little $$ as possible.
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Post by apollo.ra »

nightsblood wrote: Apollo: Wanna buy a stamp collection? Will trade stamps for metal records :)
I could trade a Heathens Rage EP for just a:
Cyprus 1924/1928 King George V, 5 Pounds stamp :lol:
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hload
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Post by hload »

When i got free my axton pryte + excess copies with signed photos, posters, pins etc i've told them to sell very hard the remaining copies, not that they had boxes of them. To thank them i made donations to the foundation of research and development in the ongoing fight against phylloxera and syrah identification. Then i bought some shares of Domain Guigal.
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nightsblood
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Post by nightsblood »

apollo.ra wrote:
nightsblood wrote: Apollo: Wanna buy a stamp collection? Will trade stamps for metal records :)
I could trade a Heathens Rage EP for just a:
Cyprus 1924/1928 King George V, 5 Pounds stamp :lol:
Shoot, I was going to offer you an Inverted Jenny instead, but I guess you're not interested :wink:
Seriously though, I have a big stamp collection that was my grandfather's that I've been trying to learn something about. Thousands and thousands of 'em from all over the world, but I know nothing about them
:?: :?: :?:
"I'm sorry Sam, we had real chemistry. But like a monkey on the sun, our love was too hot to live"
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