The SAVATAGE thread

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:39 pm

Split from "Your top 5 this week" thread./aDmin

Helstar wrote:"Gutter Ballet" is the best album ever

Gross. Especially when the majority of the bands previous albums slay the shit out of this one 10 times over.

Too many fucking keyboards and lack of balls.

Black Axe · Post by **Black Axe** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:19 pm

Avenger wrote:
Helstar wrote:"Gutter Ballet" is the best album ever
Gross. Especially when the majority of the bands previous albums slay the shit out of this one 10 times over.

Too many fucking keyboards and lack of balls.

Even the majority of the bands following albums slay the shit out of it as well.

mordred · Post by **mordred** » Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:15 pm

Avenger wrote:
Helstar wrote:"Gutter Ballet" is the best album ever
Gross. Especially when the majority of the bands previous albums slay the shit out of this one 10 times over.

Eh... no.
Savatage's best period was 1987-1993 and Gutter Ballet is quite possibly the best album. It's probably their most popular album too.

Black Axe · Post by **Black Axe** » Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:21 pm

mordred wrote:It's probably their most popular album too.

In The Hall... Of The Mountain King!!!!!

mordred · Post by **mordred** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:09 am

Black Axe wrote:
mordred wrote:It's probably their most popular album too.
In The Hall... Of The Mountain King!!!!!

No, among Savatage fans who enjoy the whole or most of the catalogue, HOTMK is not as popular as Gutter Ballet, not even close. Just look at the common set list of Jon Oliva's Pain these days. He only does the title song of HOTMK, but loads of songs off Gutter Ballet and Streets, which are the most popular albums among his fans.

You know, some renounce Savatage after HOTMK because it was last album without keyboards, some renounce Savatage after Gutter Ballet because the following album (Streets) was so different, some renounce Savatage after Streets because it was the last album (or so it seemed at the time) with Jon Oliva on lead vocals, and some renounce Savatage after Edge of Thorns because it was the last album with Criss Oliva on guitar.

Outside the circle of renouncers, who are pretty much just fly by occasional listeners anyway, Gutter Ballet and Streets are likely the most popular albums.

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:35 am

HOTMK is the better album for me, but I'd agree that GB is more popular. It's simply more accessible material to wider audiences. Accessible doesn't necessarily mean "sell-out", but you know, more ballads, less vocal insanity, no crushing riffs ala Beyond the doors of the dark etc. make it easier to digest for their fans, either their metallers or not.

Black Axe · Post by **Black Axe** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:15 am

ION BRITTON wrote:more ballads, less vocal insanity, no crushing riffs

Yeah, it really is a dire album.

GJ · Post by GJ » Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:20 pm

ION BRITTON wrote:more ballads, less vocal insanity, no crushing riffs

...and the crime of introducing the sissy "musical" genre into metal.

mordred · Post by **mordred** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:53 pm

ION BRITTON wrote:HOTMK is the better album for me, but I'd agree that GB is more popular. It's simply more accessible material to wider audiences.

I think you're dead wrong here, HOTMK is a much more accessible album than Gutter Ballet. GB at the time was a very bold and adventurous record to make for Savatage. The material featured on it is by far the most complex, progressive, dynamic and challenging they had ever written. HOTMK on the other hand is, while also a masterpiece, an album that most metalheads can understand and get into much easier than Gutter Ballet. Additionally, HOTMK features what is possibly the most commercial song Savatage ever did (outisde Fight for the Rock anyway), "Strange Wings". There is nothing similar to that on Gutter Ballet.

On a comparison with for instance Fates Warning, any earlier Savatage album is "Night on Bröcken" while Gutter Ballet is "Awaken the Guardian".

ION BRITTON wrote:but you know, more ballads, less vocal insanity, no crushing riffs ala Beyond the doors of the dark etc. make it easier to digest for their fans, either their metallers or not.

It matters not which album you like more of course but... Vocally, Jon Oliva definitely pushed his voice one step further with Gutter Ballet album. "When the Crowds are Gone", a ballad or not, features the highest screams and singing he ever recorded. There's lots of outrageous stuff too. "The Unholy" might be the fastest song Savatage ever recorded, "Hounds" is the doomiest one, "She's in Love" one of the most aggressive (again with some of Oliva's most insane vocals) and the lead riff of "Thorazine Shuffle" is as dark and heavy as anything on HOTMK. When discussing Gutter Ballet, many seem to only remember the two songs that had promo films made to them. Must be because they are two of the best songs in the world ever by any band.

GJ wrote:...and the crime of introducing the sissy "musical" genre into metal.

I think you are mixing it up with Streets: A Rock Opera, the album from 1991 that followed Gutter Ballet. That is a musical (and one of the best albums ever of course).

EDIT: Black Axe has changed for a very sexy avatar and signature... like all other Savatage albums, I know Handful of Rain forwards and backwards.

Post by **DaN** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:07 pm

I'm part of the HOTMK-but-that's-it-crowd I'm afraid. I had GB ages ago but was severely disappointed by it. Don't think I'm a fan of that style in general but I've been thinking I'll give it + their later output a 2nd chance in the near future. I've had tranger flip-flop-epiphanies before...

"The Dungeouns Are Calling" is the seminal SAVATAGE-release for me - 5 pieces of Flawless Steel! Think I'll put it on in a few minutes actually..

Here's 2 stupid questions:

1. What the hell is a "savatage"??
2. How do you guys pronounce it? [Sávatidsch] or [Savatáah:sch]?

omen of hate · Post by **omen of hate** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:13 pm

DaN wrote:[Savatáah:sch]?

I think it's the way to pronounce it.

I'm not the biggest fan of SAVATAGE. Imo, in the majority of their albums, there are 3 or 4 good tracks and the rest of the songs are just fillers.

Another stupid question about them : is the band still active ?

MEXDefenderOfSteel · Post by **MEXDefenderOfSteel** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:25 pm

mordred wrote:
ION BRITTON wrote:HOTMK is the better album for me, but I'd agree that GB is more popular. It's simply more accessible material to wider audiences.
I think you're dead wrong here, HOTMK is a much more accessible album than Gutter Ballet. GB at the time was a very bold and adventurous record to make for Savatage. The material featured on it is by far the most complex, progressive, dynamic and challenging they had ever written. HOTMK on the other hand is, while also a masterpiece, an album that most metalheads can understand and get into much easier than Gutter Ballet. Additionally, HOTMK features what is possibly the most commercial song Savatage ever did (outisde Fight for the Rock anyway), "Strange Wings". There is nothing similar to that on Gutter Ballet.

On a comparison with for instance Fates Warning, any earlier Savatage album is "Night on Bröcken" while Gutter Ballet is "Awaken the Guardian".

ION BRITTON wrote:but you know, more ballads, less vocal insanity, no crushing riffs ala Beyond the doors of the dark etc. make it easier to digest for their fans, either their metallers or not.
It matters not which album you like more of course but... Vocally, Jon Oliva definitely pushed his voice one step further with Gutter Ballet album. "When the Crowds are Gone", a ballad or not, features the highest screams and singing he ever recorded. There's lots of outrageous stuff too. "The Unholy" might be the fastest song Savatage ever recorded, "Hounds" is the doomiest one, "She's in Love" one of the most aggressive (again with some of Oliva's most insane vocals) and the lead riff of "Thorazine Shuffle" is as dark and heavy as anything on HOTMK. When discussing Gutter Ballet, many seem to only remember the two songs that had promo films made to them. Must be because they are two of the best songs in the world ever by any band.

GJ wrote:...and the crime of introducing the sissy "musical" genre into metal.
I think you are mixing it up with Streets: A Rock Opera, the album from 1991 that followed Gutter Ballet. That is a musical (and one of the best albums ever of course).

EDIT: Black Axe has changed for a very sexy avatar and signature... like all other Savatage albums, I know Handful of Rain forwards and backwards.

people, thats what i call being a fan

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:44 am

mordred wrote:
Black Axe wrote:
mordred wrote:It's probably their most popular album too.
In The Hall... Of The Mountain King!!!!!
No, among Savatage fans who enjoy the whole or most of the catalogue, HOTMK is not as popular as Gutter Ballet, not even close. Just look at the common set list of Jon Oliva's Pain these days. He only does the title song of HOTMK, but loads of songs off Gutter Ballet and Streets, which are the most popular albums among his fans.

You know, some renounce Savatage after HOTMK because it was last album without keyboards, some renounce Savatage after Gutter Ballet because the following album (Streets) was so different, some renounce Savatage after Streets because it was the last album (or so it seemed at the time) with Jon Oliva on lead vocals, and some renounce Savatage after Edge of Thorns because it was the last album with Criss Oliva on guitar.

Outside the circle of renouncers, who are pretty much just fly by occasional listeners anyway, Gutter Ballet and Streets are likely the most popular albums.

Since when did populartiy mean quality?

I'll admit that "Fight For The Rock" is a throwaway minus a couple of tracks but all of the other previous efforts walk all over "Gutter Ballet". Seriously, minus "The Unholy" and "She's In Love" is the rest of that album even Metal?

N.W.O.O.F.G.M. · Post by **N.W.O.O.F.G.M.** » Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:28 am

DaN wrote: Here's 2 stupid questions:

1. What the hell is a "savatage"??
2. How do you guys pronounce it? [Sávatidsch] or [Savatáah:sch]?

1. Savage + Avatar = Savatage (kinda)
2. Most people here in Greece pronounce it as [Savatáah:sch]. The band did not seem to mind when they played down here.

I can't honestly pick one Savatage era as my favorite. All of them have their merits, and I do believe that GB (my favorite release of theirs) combines the best of both worlds, while offering some amazing songwriting.

Black Axe · Post by **Black Axe** » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:03 am

N.W.O.O.F.G.M. wrote:
DaN wrote: Here's 2 stupid questions:

1. What the hell is a "savatage"??
2. How do you guys pronounce it? [Sávatidsch] or [Savatáah:sch]?
1. Savage + Avatar = Savatage (kinda)
2. Most people here in Greece pronounce it as [Savatáah:sch]. The band did not seem to mind when they played down here.

I can't honestly pick one Savatage era as my favorite. All of them have their merits, and I do believe that GB (my favorite release of theirs) combines the best of both worlds, while offering some amazing songwriting.

I think it's mentioned in one of the re-issues that Savatage is a combination of the words Sabotage and Savage. Also, try listening to their live albums. There you can hear the correct pronunciation.