Early Black Metal - what were the bands?

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Cochino
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Post by Cochino »

J.K. wrote: Really interesting. Nasty Savage credited as Black Metal is the most surprising.
Ha, it's pretty funny to see Voivod credited as Power Metal and Possessed as Speed Metal as well.
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MEXDefenderOfSteel
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Post by MEXDefenderOfSteel »

Cochino wrote:
J.K. wrote: Really interesting. Nasty Savage credited as Black Metal is the most surprising.
Ha, it's pretty funny to see Voivod credited as Power Metal and Possessed as Speed Metal as well.
im ok with those 2....just wondering about the nasty savage one
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deathster
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Post by deathster »

I have read Amon (pre-Deicide) interview from 1989 where Mr. Benton calls Amon a black metal band (which is logical as black metal is satanic/occult thrash metal with satanic image).
I have even read Trouble 1st album review from 1984 where Trouble was also described as black metal (based on musical extremism not lyrical I think. Hell, even Poison was influenced by early Trouble). In early 90s (in 1990/91) satanic bands were called Satanic Death Metal because death metal was IN. So it does not matter what journalists (or journalist wanna-be`s) say. We fans know it all better :) .
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Post by J.K. »

Yeah I never know why Benton didn't want the "Death Metal" appelation. But I was not aware that he qualifies Amon BM. I think he didn't like that Death Metal term could refer to Chuck Schuldiner's band hehe.

As for TROUBLE (amen), been called BLACK METAL.......... no, seriously. :roll:
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Fire Down Under
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Post by Fire Down Under »

J.K. wrote: As for TROUBLE (amen), been called BLACK METAL.......... no, seriously. :roll:
in German Rock Hard magazine Trouble of course were called Black Metal and, i think, even compared to VENOM! :roll:
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Post by J.K. »

Yep... So probably these guys were called "Satanic Skinheads" I guess.

Image

:D
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Avenger
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Post by Avenger »

J.K. wrote:But did they influence any Black Metal band of the "second wave" ? I don't think so. Thus it's weird to call them "black metal" OR "roots of black metal" since -to my knowledge- none of the pionneers where listening to gates or branded when they created "second wave BM".


The big problem with Black Metal and its definition is that the term comes from early 80's, but the musical style (and there is definitively one) has been formed later, in reaction to what were becoming the "Death Metal standards"...


What I wonder too is, why people never call Bathory a Death Metal act since Quorthon himself did it in the 80's, and Swedish Death metallers (Nihilist, Carnage...) claims to have been influenced by them... So, people like to imagine a "first wave" of black metal but never a first wave of death metal? (and what about calling Bathory a Thrash metal band in fact?)

I got a headache now.

Anyway I think that the whole "first wave/second wave" is really not appropriate to explain BM. And first of all because this was absolutely not a "WAVE" in the 80's... But bands here and there, not knowing each other, sometimes hatin' each other (I read Cronos wanted King Diamond dead hahaha).
Why did you rekindle this useless thread?



The entire "early black metal" argument holds no substance because it's totally subjective. Unlike standardized sub-genre labeling where there is a distinguishing specific sound difference in the music, this "first wave of black metal" is based either entirely on opinion or lyrics, which are not factors in classification of sub-genres. But ultimately this has already been said...

I really don’t see why nor the need for this void argument to be carried on for 14 pages...
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J.K.
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Post by J.K. »

Cause I saw ION BRITTON said that Running Wild is 1st wave BM and I couldn't help but reply.

BLAME ON ME.
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ION BRITTON
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Post by ION BRITTON »

What I said was that considering what bands were included in the list of the opening post, RUNNING WILD should have been included as well.
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Post by roihlem »

ION BRITTON wrote:I think we have to forget about calling anything with satanic lyrics black metal regardless whether it's from the 80s or the 90s, this is not enough, the sound has to have also a black, evil feel and the image has to be dark as well.
ION BRITTON wrote:What I said was that considering what bands were included in the list of the opening post, RUNNING WILD should have been included as well.
I agree with you when reading the list of bands, that Running Wild should be included there as well. But on the other hand if Iron Angel or Running Wild`s first album were released in 2011, would someone still even think of it as a Black Metal album? That`s why for me first wave Black Metal (if all of those bands from the list really belong to that style) is just a term for early/ mid 80s Metal with satanic lyrics, so for me personally not a musical style at all. A musical style doesn`t change its` name over the years, and many of those bands listed in the first post would now fit into other categories...I`m getting confused anyway :wink:
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ION BRITTON
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Post by ION BRITTON »

roihlem wrote: I agree with you when reading the list of bands, that Running Wild should be included there as well. But on the other hand if Iron Angel or Running Wild`s first album were released in 2011, would someone still even think of it as a Black Metal album? That`s why for me first wave Black Metal (if all of those bands from the list really belong to that style) is just a term for early/ mid 80s Metal with satanic lyrics, so for me personally not a musical style at all. A musical style doesn`t change its` name over the years, and many of those bands listed in the first post would now fit into other categories...I`m getting confused anyway :wink:
Well, it's not anything dogmatic, it's simply a term and we are enjoying this discussion, nothing more. Besides, we are not saying anything extreme, no one has claimed that Iron Angel are blues or anything like that. I insist though, if we are 'allowed' to use the term black metal for 80s metal bands, satanic lyrics are not the only factor that has to be taken into consideration.
To which sound does the term black metal apply anyway? Emperor are considered black metal, Necromantia too, Summoning as well. The differences between them are huge though and this is just as confusing.
It doesn't matter that much...I use the term to describe better their music, would it sound better if I called them heavy metal with a black feel and satanic lyrics? Maybe, I won't lose my sleep if it isn't 100& accurate, I'm not gonna start a crusade for RW to be classified as early black or 1st wave of black metal or whatever...at the end of the day the music is there first and foremost to be enjoyed and not to trigger off philosophical or semantics analysis
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Post by J.K. »

I'm agree with you to say that the lyrics ain't enough to called a band BM.

As for Running Wild (or Iron Angel), I just don't find them "destroyed enough". I mean their sound is pretty clean and they play well (hehe).

VENOM were crazy, destroyed, real poor production, and big Fuck Off attitude.

As for Running Wild or Iron Angel, it's total Speed Metal for me, because it's simply faster Heavy Metal (well played, well produced and without extreme elements or NOISY riffs).

VENOM, HELLHAMMER, BATHORY. They all got this "fucked up" touch, let's say Punk, that permit to call them "Black Metal" (even if, as I said, all in all, they're just Extreme Metal pionneers, without boundaries).


I'm thinking about one thing: Does anybody here knows WHEN "people" start to speak about this so-called "1s wave" ? I don't even know who invented the appellation. It might help us to know from when and who start to classify the genre between two "waves".
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roihlem
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Post by roihlem »

ION BRITTON wrote: Well, it's not anything dogmatic, it's simply a term and we are enjoying this discussion, nothing more. Besides, we are not saying anything extreme, no one has claimed that Iron Angel are blues or anything like that. I insist though, if we are 'allowed' to use the term black metal for 80s metal bands, satanic lyrics are not the only factor that has to be taken into consideration.
To which sound does the term black metal apply anyway? Emperor are considered black metal, Necromantia too, Summoning as well. The differences between them are huge though and this is just as confusing.
It doesn't matter that much...I use the term to describe better their music, would it sound better if I called them heavy metal with a black feel and satanic lyrics? Maybe, I won't lose my sleep if it isn't 100& accurate, I'm not gonna start a crusade for RW to be classified as early black or 1st wave of black metal or whatever...at the end of the day the music is there first and foremost to be enjoyed and not to trigger off philosophical or semantics analysis
I know, I do not like to be philosophic nor did I wanted to attack you, I justed stated my view on that term. I stated RW as an example just because they were mentioned more often in the last few posts..:wink: I wanted to say that if a record would be labeled as "first wave BM", I would not know what music to expect from that record ....Personally, I like more descriptions like "Black/ Death Metal" or "Black/ Thrash" instead of inventing new terms....But that`s just my opinion.

Back on topic, would you guys consider this as an early BM band? It is from 86 or 87...Cannot decide if it is more HC or BM....
http://rapidshare.com/files/442007849/0 ... resija.rar
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ION BRITTON
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Post by ION BRITTON »

@JK talking about the FIRST RW albums, nothing clean there, the sound is dirty, the riffs heavy as fuck, the atmosphere quite evil (especially on the debut, the 2nd is less satanic, but darker), and the fuck-off! attitude..well, just listen to 'Black Demon' or 'Branded and exiled' for example. It doens't have to be necessarily sloppy and badly produced, at least not for me..

@roihlem, I didn't take your post as an attack, I was refering to RW most of the time as a prime example of what I wanted to say
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metalmaster
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Post by metalmaster »

ION BRITTON wrote:@JK talking about the FIRST RW albums, nothing clean there, the sound is dirty, the riffs heavy as fuck, the atmosphere quite evil (especially on the debut, the 2nd is less satanic, but darker), and the fuck-off! attitude..well, just listen to 'Black Demon' or 'Branded and exiled' for example. It doens't have to be necessarily sloppy and badly produced, at least not for me..

@roihlem, I didn't take your post as an attack, I was refering to RW most of the time as a prime example of what I wanted to say
Actually i found more Black METAL those two first Running Wild albums than most of the Black metal bands of today, and recent times. Certainly old new to me..
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