Greeks and US metal, are they really so obsessed with it?

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:40 pm

Helm wrote:
I'm no fan of ''if the vocalist screams and the riffs are sharp then it MUST be godly'' theory either, but that's quite another discussion. To be honest though, although I've seen some people deifying anything that has to do with a particular style of US metal, I haven't met anyone yet deifying everything from Cirith Ungol to the last prog band of the 90s.
Can you expand on this a little? Since we're exhausting the narrow purpose of the thread title...

Not all US metal has the same feeling or attitude. There are several different styles: ''clean'' or prog-y US metal like Queensryche and Hittman and there's the more aggressive, darker and in-your-face side of it with bands like early Jag Panzer or Iron Cross (Fl) for example. And while it is not totally unlikely to find a fan of both sides, I don't think you can easily find one who worships equally both of them. I for one like Hittman a lot, but if I were to choose between them and Savage Grace, I would definitely choose SG without hesitation. What I mean is that it is not very possible to find someone who will like and much rather deify anything from the US (power metal related) even if it concerns only a small period of the 80s.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:33 am

I don't know man, I've met a lot of people that love both Hittman and Savage Grace. The range in US Power isn't that great.

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:02 am

Helm wrote:The range in US Power isn't that great.

I actually think it is. There's a significant difference in both style and attitude between a band like Tyrant and Warlord or Queensryche.

Nebuchadnezzar · Post by **Nebuchadnezzar** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:02 am

stormspell wrote:I know I'm a cynical bastard, but when I saw the topic the one Greek obsession with US metal that immediately came to my mind was this:

http://i16.ebayimg.com/02/i/001/13/03/ac91_1.JPG

By the way anyone knows how many volumes have been made and whats on the rest?

Hahaha

There was a thread on TMAG answering your question I think "metalfranc" answered that if I'll find it I'll post it here...

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:58 am

Okay, what this comes down to in the end is the vast majority of bands from the US. I don't think that anyone can sanely argue that any other country in the world had more active bands then the US during the glory days of Metal. That being said, from a standpoint of concentrating on one specific "scene" that you have interest in, it only makes sense to choose that of the "US Metal" "genre", as it has the most to discover, offer and keep you interested. Although arguable, Metal of the 80's in regards to the number of “fans” TODAY, is led by greece in my opinion. If that's a good thing or not, is another discussion, but with that being the case, I think that greece is just simply an easy target for judgement on behalf of the number of 80's Metal fans and which scene is popular. Yes, greeks like “US Metal”, but only because that's where the majority of the bands where, the attention was and the majority of the movement later took place.

Now can the “battle of the true” please end?

I’ve grown tired of this attitude quite some time ago and it’s almost offensive to have to read through pre-Black Metal message board arguments rehashed to suit that of the content here.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 5:52 pm

Ion Britton here's a theory I've been kicking around in my head: To some degree, we like Heavy Metal because it's difficult to do and do right. It takes effort, right? Sweat, determination. Isn't it the case that when you listen to a 'perfect riff' you might get images of someone sitting down with his guitar for countless hours to achieve its perfect form? This isn't a judgment of intent, it's a judgment of the process. Was it difficult to make, or did it just come easy and you hit record and there it was? Lots of metalheads like to contrast between their music and 'easy' pop music (even when the pop music wasn't really easy to make!) and a good test of this theory is, do you think more highly of art that took real labor and sweat to make, even if the end result doesn't please you aesthetically? Most people do.

Of course this isn't an all-encompassing theory, but would we agree that the amount of effort and determination that goes in the making of a HM album would matter to us as listeners?

If so, then one of the reasons I am distressed by bands that don't have 'real' lyrics and are just slapping things on there because it just was fashionable and so on, is because that is very easy to do. It suggests that there wasn't effort put into it. Copycat bands also take the easy way out of composing something new, they just steal riffs/concepts from older bands, it's the same thing. Originality isn't so much what I want, it's LABOR.

How do you feel about this concept?

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:30 pm

Helm wrote:Originality isn't so much what I want, it's LABOR.

Now, this is something different and I generally agree. As long as there's passion and honesty in the lyrics I can do without much originality. Originality is always welcome of course, but as you probably know it takes something more than mere passion and lots of work in order to achieve it. Same thing that goes with music. We would have been more than just 'picky' if we listened only to the bands who had an original sound. Same thing with lyrics, I don't have a problem with the less original ones, but in order to identify with them to some degree there's has to be at least some passion and love thrown in. Not that it is totally impossible for me to enjoy a song with offhanded lyrics, however it's always better when they're the result of some good and honest work.
I'm pretty sure though that a lot of the great riffs we have heard and the lyrics we have read were created within a few minutes, inspiration is something you can't easily control or tame.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:38 am

exactly, but this is why I don't just trust 'riffs'. As it is often said, *any* guitarist will have 4-10 great riffs in them just by playing and practising and channelling whatever discreete forces of inspiration there are in this cosmos. But it takes real effort to craft a fully-composed song, and it takes even more effort to craft a statement, and it takes huge effort to make an ALBUM'S WORTH of it.

This is one of the reasons why I never understood the obscuritist mania of the underground with 80's bands that have one or two great riffs in a song and the rest is clearly just chords for the singer to sing on, as if even the musicians themselves were afraid to sit down and try to write followups to their random brilliant riffs.

Compare Slauter Xstroyes - Winterkill (perfect gem of metal, not a single second wasted) with say... Dark Age - The Execution (fucking awesome main riff, rest is mostly root and fifth chords like a rock song)

daniel · Post by **daniel** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:57 pm

I cannot understand your obsession to constantly intellectualise musical experiences - why are you seemingly opposed to purely emotional responses? And the baffling outcome of this sees you supposedly lift crap like Esoteric above this US Metal scene that you have some problem with. SO WHAT(?) if an album isn't full of great riffs, it doesn't make me lose respect for the band, I dwell on the positive aspects of recordings if they are things I constantly listen to. You seem to take a very high and mighty stance, while it seems to me you are a person that likes to download things and dissect them, how could you possibly understand what drives someone to want to own an original pressing of something... Sorry there are people talking in the other room so I can't concentrate, I'll have to continue this sometime later.

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:41 pm

Helm wrote:80's bands that have one or two great riffs in a song and the rest is clearly just chords for the singer to sing on

Undeniably this happened quite often, what I meant though was that some complete songs that are great were created in a very short time. However the one-great-riff-among-five-average thing is probably something you meet more often.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:48 pm

daniel wrote:I cannot understand your obsession to constantly intellectualise musical experiences - why are you seemingly opposed to purely emotional responses?

I am not. At all. I have them just as you, I'm no robot. The intellectual concerns that come after the emotions do not invalidate them, at least for me. I do not fear or feel threatened by discourse over the artifacts of culture and art that matter to me. In fact I think the best thing we can do for HM as listeners is to try to analyze it. I think it's a good thing to be strict and severe with the things I love.

SO WHAT(?) if an album isn't full of great riffs, it doesn't make me lose respect for the band, I dwell on the positive aspects of recordings if they are things I constantly listen to.

Thanks for giving me your point of view. It goes without saying that I respect it. I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

You seem to take a very high and mighty stance, while it seems to me you are a person that likes to download things and dissect them,

I don't think one follows the other. I have my pride and I am not willing to pretend to be humble for anyone (and I don't expect this from anyone else either)... if that's 'high and mighty' for you, I can understand. I assure you my intentions aren't to put anybody else down though. As far as 'downloading and dissecting'... not really. The stuff I talk about is the stuff I love the most, and most of it has either been bought a long time ago when I was a teenager, or since then, in smaller quantities. My interest is not in idle conversation for its own sake, you know, just getting something off of a blog and then blabbing about it online. My interest is in deeper understanding of things that mean a lot to me. Omen, for example, mean a lot to me. Esoteric, also. I do not put one above the other at all.

I don't have to justify myself by telling you how much money I have spent for Heavy Metal, because my relationship with it as a 25 year old person is not primarily a consumerist one anymore. I live and breathe Heavy Metal because I not only listen to it and enjoy it, but because I try to understand it and I express myself through it, foremost.

how could you possibly understand what drives someone to want to own an original pressing of something...

I try to understand. I know what company I am keeping here in the Corosseum. I've lived all my life with close family members who are waaaay into their various collections. I do not think a love of HM presupposes the need to hunt down original pressings at all.

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:03 am

Helm wrote:I live and breathe Heavy Metal because I not only listen to it and enjoy it, but because I try to understand it and I express myself through it, foremost.

Wow, quote of the year for one of the most ridiculous things that I've ever read.

I'm starting to wonder if your actually serious when you type stuff like this...

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:10 am

I am at a loss as to why you feel this way, Avenger.

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:58 am

Helm wrote:I am at a loss as to why you feel this way, Avenger.

I'm wondering if you actually believe this stuff?

It's so, for lack of a better word, "cheesy"...

You are a parody of Metal.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:25 am

I do believe what I say.

And I'm wandering if the asshole on the smartass is showing...