Greeks and US metal, are they really so obsessed with it?

[ION BRITTON]

Split from is there 'race-specific' metal? thread. /Mod

A lot has to do I think with what 'scenes' you are introduced the earliest to in each country. For example when a wiser older friend played me my first real HM (after having listened to Metallica) he played me Sultan's Ransom, King of the Dead, Control and Resistance and I think Tysondog?! He just played me what was considered excellent - and still is excellent - but also what was considered 'serious' heavy metal, in greece. Not Gammaray and Iced Earth (wait, back 15 years now, Iced Earth were very respected in Greece too!) I like US metal because I listened Omen seriously before I listened to Iron Maiden seriously. I don't think there's anything race-specific as in genetic, it's just that specific trends (and yes, that is the word) keep propagating themselves. Metalheads from Norway are doomed to forever listen to norwegian black metal primarily because of how saturated their scene history is with it. Greek HM people will eventually stumble into the almost autistic adoration for all things US Power here eventually and so on...

I think most people really into HM eventually break the mold and stop caring how much the rest of the scene of their country love their pet genres and just listen to what they like.

While it wouldn't be true to say that the opinions of some people didn't influence to a certain degree my listenings at a younger age, I can't say that I had a specific mentor either. I started listening to US metal not because my friends did the same (they didn't anyway, plus I didn't know more than 3 schoolmates that were seriously into metal generally), but because it was the US metal sound that really moved me and found it more exciting than anything else.
It was only a few years ago that I fully realized that there was some kind of US metal ''trend'' here in Greece. My musical preferences weren't particularly related with what metal style was dominating the greek scene each time nor they were shaped by it. It's true that many metalheads here show a strong preference towards the US metal sound, but I am not so sure that all of them do so because of that ''trend'' and our scene's history. I am sure that there are many people who listen to US metal because it is that that expresses their feelings better and not because the trend ''commands'' them to do it.
Also, my first listenings had nothing to do with US metal per se, it was Maiden, Priest, Sabbath and Running Wild that got me into metal, not Jag Panzer or Manilla Road. Of course I was blown away when I discovered the latter and it was their awesomeness that kickstarted my serious involvement with US metal but things possibly would have end up the same whether I had listened to British metal before or after them.

[Helm]

I'm certain a lot of people have a 'pure' progression towards US metal in Greece and elsewhere, Ion. Not saying everybody's swept by a trend. However isn't it interesting how for as long as I remember talking to Greek 'serious' metalheads for example they have impressed upon me that Liege Lord (a very specific example) are fucking awesome, yet every time I listen to them I got bored easily. Do they all like Liege Lord as much as they say? When you tell them you don't like them they get all insulted as if you're insulting a sacred cow. Because you are. There is a strong fixation with certain bands, in the underground circles.

US Metal being big in Greece is a lot about Greek listeners (especially in the late 80s and 90's) being unaccustomed to things like irony and facetiousness. Metal doesn't like irony generally, but that doesn't mean all of US 80's metal is true. US Metal, a lot of it was made for hopes of money and groupies, but the Greeks would never know because they get struck by the primal feeling on the core (what can I say, the americans were great at perfecting the Judas Priest formula no-bullshit-amazing-riffs-and-vocals) and that's enough for them and they don't investigate. I'm not saying they *should* investigate, necessarily. If it works for you it works for you. Just saying, the 'true' feeling associated with a lot of US Metal for me is unwarranted because now, 13 years later the motives of a lot of these musicians and their one-hit-power-metal-wonders are more transparent than when I was 12 years old. These motives are not discussed in underground circles because they're unflattering. For example so many people worship Satan's Host and it comes off so gimmicky to me, so extremely unconvincing... Tyrant doesn't belong in the least singing 'bang your head for lucifer oooh oooh' on top... bleh. But they're a sacred icon in the underground here.

Similarily I'm sure there's a US Metal contigency in Brazil or something, places where English isn't the first language, where they didn't watch Saturday Night Live for 10 years to be trained in saying one thing and believing the exact opposite, where being a constant comedian isn't the priority, where Face Value Is The Only Value. US Metal themes of power, struggle against all odds and spiritual elevation will always be more successful to those that for reasons of language barrier or culture, misconstrue the intentions of the artists to be completely pure.

[MassOfKthulu]

actually everyone i knew when i was 14 told me to stop listening to manowar and listen to slayer-then again when i was studying in england i was astonished that there was literally not ONE metal fan in a city of tens of thousands-that made me very cold and resolute about the whole thing.
and let's not take it too far with greeks being into underground US metal and such-slipknot played 2 nights ago and there were more 13 year olds in front of the stage than there were ever US metal fans in all of Hellas.

[ION BRITTON]

Do they all like Liege Lord as much as they say?

I can't be completely sure of what others feel and if their words match their true feelings. I can only speak for myself on such issues. I am not insulted (heavy word anyway) if someone will say to me that he hates Jag Panzer or Satans Host. I'll probably respond with something but in fact, I don't care. I listen to music for my own pleasure.

These motives are not discussed in underground circles because they're unflattering.

Not necessarily. Some people are simply not interested in them.

US Metal themes of power, struggle against all odds and spiritual elevation will always be more successful to those that for reasons of language barrier or culture, misconstrue the intentions of the artists to be completely pure.

That goes us back in an old discussion that was about how people listen to music in general. There's not a rule that says that everybody should listen and interpret music in this or that way. Whatever one chooses to do, if the music he listens to it makes him feel fine and he enjoys it, then it's fine with me. If the purity of the artist's intentions is important to you, then so be it. For others it might not be that important. If you feel that this is what you have to do in order to fully enjoy your stuff, then don't ask anyone and don't ''apologize'' for it. Just do it. For me personally if the lyrics match the feeling the music wants to deliver then it's quite OK. And I'm not particularly annoyed by not so well written lyrics or lyrics that aren't original or innovating. For me, good riffing and good vocal lines are #1. Everything else comes next. I don't care if the motives of the composer were pure and he believed 100% in what he wrote, if what I hear kicks ass, all is fine. How can you be completely sure of such things anyway?

The discussion has gone a bit off-topic, so I'll make a split when I come up with a decent title.

[ChildOfTheDamned]

The most accurate description would be that a big portion of the (remaining) US metal fans of the entire world is in Greece - there's no such thing as a trend or something like that. I'm pretty sure that MassofKtulu and myself know most the greek US metal fans by their name,we're not THAT many! Not more than 300-400 nationwide.

One thing that saddens me though,is that Germany doesn't have a record company dedicated to reiussing US metal and assorted rarities/hidden gems,although the country is full of like-minded fans who buy everything Stormspell or Arkeyn Steel releases. Do something,you guys! I rest my case.

[Helm]

The most accurate description would be that a big portion of the (remaining) US metal fans of the entire world is in Greece

Yes, more accurate. I do think that there will be another generation pocket of metal fans that worships US metal here of the same size, because I see all these 17-8 year olds with the old t-shirts at shows and stuff... I have no idea how that happens besides some of these 300-400 people nationwide influencing a newer generation.

There's not a rule that says that everybody should listen and interpret music in this or that way.

Of course not, but would you say that looking back at your memories of people listening to True Steel, you'd say they don't take the motives and lyrics and stuff seriously? When they raise their fist to Omen, is it just because the riffs and vocals are good?

How can you be completely sure of such things anyway?

You never can be completely sure, but 'reasonably sure' is a useful compromise.

actually everyone i knew when i was 14 told me to stop listening to manowar and listen to slayer

I'm really fascinated by the thrash thing and and the repercussions it had in our local 'scene'. There seem to have been variations of this happening in various places in the world and from what I have realized most metalheads in most scenes around the world reacted by listening to both thrash and heavy metal, but in Greece there seems to have been some sort of schism, further exacerbated by the death metal and then black metal that came after.

[nightsblood]

Based on my own POV, which as an american is of course biased, I would have to agree w/ Helm's statements about many foreign metal fans taking American metal bands far too seriously sometimes. Satans Host is a perfect example, and Manowar isn't far behind. Sure, people can enjoy- or not enjoy- these bands for whatever reasons and on whatever level, but the fact of the matter is that bands like Pile Driver (can), Satans Host, Manowar, Devil CHilde, etc etc used a simple 'shock value' element that was meant to sell a few records; they never meant to expouse a real, serious, deep-rooted satanism or lifestyle philosophy. This is why I can't help but laugh and roll my eyes when i hear/read some metal fan from greece, mexico, brazil, or anywhere else start going off like, "'Metal From Hell' is the greatest testament to those who bleed only the truest steel and must be hallowed for all eternity by the brotherhood of champions who defy all that is false metal...". It's great that you love the record, but the fact that you completely miss the motivation behind the recording of the album indicates you really don't 'get' the band at all, and thus claims of "being their most devoted acolyte" ring pretty hollow. It's like claiming to be a true, serious fan of professional wrestling and yet insisting that the matches are not rigged. You can enjoy it and that's cool, but don't try to make it bigger than it really is. I hadn't thought about it as a cultural divide, but Helm may be onto something in that people from other cultures didn't get the 'fake' aspect of many US metal bands.

And just to be fair, yes, there are plenty of american metal fans that take some bands far too seriously as well. One good example is Slayer; how in the world did US skinheads start worshiping a band with a hispanic singer?! Just shows how little attention they were really paying to their favorite band. Fans are carving the bands' name in their forearms to prove their devotion to 'Reign in Blood', and meanwhile Tony and the guys work at a garage fixing cars for a living while in-between tours
Perhaps recognizing the 'falsness' of some bands is why many people stop listening to metal as they get older and past their teenage years. They devote themselves entirely to something while they're young and impressionable, and as they gain more experience with age they start to realize the insincerity of their old favorites and thus leave them behind. Deicide struck kids as the epitome of evil once upon a time; 17 years later you know Glenn was just another musician trying to get his name out there by 'promising' to kill himself at age 33 to mock Jesus' crucifixion.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I tend to agree with ChildOfTheDamned. Most metalheads in Greece are in the black/death metal (nobody's perfect... ) we are just a small minority. Something like 300-400 in lives & some more who they are just collecting. Of course there are a few Greek metalheads amongst the biggest US metal collectors (especially on vinyl). I think the guys who like the happy tria-la-li-la-lo European "power" metal are way more...

Just my thoughts...

[msp]

US Metal, a lot of it was made for hopes of money and groupies

YES, YES!! Exactly this. I am sure a lot of the 80's bands were desperate to make as many $$ as they could. While some bands were in it for the "brotherhood" I am fairly sure a fair percentage were in for the pussy and the hope making a killing, limos, private jets etc.

As an Englishman, I was not really aware of the Greek "scene" until a few years ago but from reading fanzines etc. they seem to be obsessed with Manowar, Fates Warning, Manilla Road and Warlord to name a few. Other than Germany it seems that the majority of "private press" collectors are Greek. Hard to say why this is so. Is there a greater exposure in mainstream magazines?

[Helm]

Yes there is, comparably. Greek metalheads bitch and moan about the magazine 'Metal Hammer' but the fact of the matter is, there is more talk in it about what we would deem in this forum to be true steel than on Metal Hammer UK or Terrorizer or whatever else. And even when you see how pityful it is for 'old dogs to learn new tricks', I mean, to see metalheads that once listened to Helloween and Running Wild now claim they 'also like Nightwish' and such stuff just to stay current and trendy, they *still* know more about Helloween and Running Wild than the whole staff of Terrorizer put together, probably.

I do not thing it STARTS with the press though. I... I'm not sure where it starts. Perhaps Omen goes well with the hot weather and beautiful women at beaches? BE MY WENCH TONIGHT, OH MAIDEN SO FAIR, et al.

[ION BRITTON]

There's not a rule that says that everybody should listen and interpret music in this or that way.

Of course not, but would you say that looking back at your memories of people listening to True Steel, you'd say they don't take the motives and lyrics and stuff seriously? When they raise their fist to Omen, is it just because the riffs and vocals are good?

I don't know what the others feel about it. I personally like their lyrics alot, but I don't raise my fist because of the lyrics alone. And I certainly wouldn't do that if their lyrics were just a poem with no music at all. It's good that I understand them and even better that I like them at the same time, but for example I have no problem 'raising my fist' when I listen to bands like Retrosatan or Megaton whose language I don't understand at all.

One general question. I read that 'many' US metal bands had that 'fakeness' and their motives were not as pure as they seemed to be and while I don't say that this didn't happen at all, I don't understand why such thing should necessarily detract alot of the pleasure their music can give to someone. And how much is implied by that 'many'? Maybe 80% or something? Coz that's what I get from it. Which might be true if you consider bands like White Lion as US metal.
Yes, I worship Satan's Host and honestly I don't a give a shit whether they believed in what they were singing or not or if they were crusaders of Satanism in their lifes as well. It doesn't change a thing for me. They played and sung with much passion and balls and this enough for me. Does that make me to some eyes a ''hollow'' fan? I don't care about it, you might believe whatever you like, I know what and how deep my feelings about their music are, all the rest are of minor importance. Make me choose the best 20 US metal ever and this is surely one of them. Metal From Hell is not a test for a metalhead's trueness or whatever. I don't underestimate the love one might have for metal if he doesn't like this album, but I don't feel that us fans are making 'things bigger than they really are' either. I find that wrestling example a bit unfortunate, we are talking about music here, what's true, false, fake, killer, underrated or overrated is all subjective. And even if the motives are 'false', so what? It's an album that lays down most of the albums which were supposedly made with 'purer' intentions. That's what matters most to me. If the realization of a band's fakeness or trueness is what matters most to some people, it's fine with me if they use this logic only for themselves. I don't accept any kind of ''general truths'' and ''authorities'' when it comes to music, and not only music, art in general.

[Avenger]

This whole "pure" and "true" trend is way too widely over-used.

I'll take "cheesy", "untrue" US Power Metal over progressive-to-the-point-of-redundant-and-lack-of-any-real-song-writing/structures-post-metal-90s-bands any day.

Aside from that, I'll comment further when I've got the time to read through the entire thread.

[Helm]

One general question. I read that 'many' US metal bands had that 'fakeness' and their motives were not as pure as they seemed to be and while I don't say that this didn't happen at all, I don't understand why such thing should necessarily detract alot of the pleasure their music can give to someone. And how much is implied by that 'many'? Maybe 80% or something?

I'm sure it's much, much less. The issue is that it seems almost all US metal from a certain period is deified as long as there's riffs and high vocals. I'm sure you understand what I mean.

And even if the motives are 'false', so what? It's an album that lays down most of the albums which were supposedly made with 'purer' intentions.

I think a more useful comparison would be to albums that are made with purer intentions that are also as good in terms of riffs and vocals as Satan's Host. They exist also, right?

I don't accept any kind of ''general truths'' and ''authorities'' when it comes to music, and not only music, art in general.

I don't either and I don't mean to force my concerns on you or anyone else.

[ION BRITTON]

The issue is that it seems almost all US metal from a certain period is deified as long as there's riffs and high vocals. I'm sure you understand what I mean.

I do, but what that has to do with the motives behind it? I'm no fan of ''if the vocalist screams and the riffs are sharp then it MUST be godly'' theory either, but that's quite another discussion. To be honest though, although I've seen some people deifying anything that has to do with a particular style of US metal, I haven't met anyone yet deifying everything from Cirith Ungol to the last prog band of the 90s.

I think a more useful comparison would be to albums that are made with purer intentions that are also as good in terms of riffs and vocals as Satan's Host. They exist also, right?

They probably exist and although I can name a few that do have the riffs and the songs, they don't all come close to the greatness of Metal From Hell. In my opinion anyway...
Generally I avoid trying to make such comparisons because almost always I judge and compare albums basically in terms of how good the riffing, the vocals and the songs are.

[Helm]

I do, but what that has to do with the motives behind it?

Exactly what I'm saying is that it doesn't have to do with the motives behind it enough perhaps, that they're only passively scrutinized by people and since it's similar to other metal like that they like then it passes the cursory examination. Comes from the US? Check. Has riffs? Check. High voice? Check. Circa 1986? Check.

I'm no fan of ''if the vocalist screams and the riffs are sharp then it MUST be godly'' theory either, but that's quite another discussion. To be honest though, although I've seen some people deifying anything that has to do with a particular style of US metal, I haven't met anyone yet deifying everything from Cirith Ungol to the last prog band of the 90s.

Can you expand on this a little? Since we're exhausting the narrow purpose of the thread title...

edit: I thought it was obvious that when I said 'US metal' I meant US Power. And yeah most people self-professed fanatics of this style of music I've talked to also like a lot of the early 90's prog/power this genre developed towards.