new(er) bands rehashing & copying

GJ · Post by GJ » Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:50 am

Split from the "How old are you?" thread in Land Of Mystery / mod

It's funny how many metalheads say they hate black metal bands like Nargaroth (who are they?) but listen and respect band like Bathory that gave a kickstart for that genre.

The Erlking · Post by **The Erlking** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:19 am

GJ wrote:It's funny how many metalheads say they hate black metal bands like Nargaroth (who are they?) but listen and respect band like Bathory that gave a kickstart for that genre.

Well there's good bands in Black Metal and the genre is widely respected (to a degree in "truuu oldschool" circles as well) amongst metalheads nowadays but can you say same about numetal?

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:53 pm

GJ wrote:It's funny how many metalheads say they hate black metal bands like Nargaroth (who are they?) but listen and respect band like Bathory that gave a kickstart for that genre.

The answer to that is quite simple. Qualitywise there's no comparison between the old bands of the first wave of black metal and most of the newer bands. Why should I listen to a band that recycles for the 1000th time the old Bathory riffs and Quorthon's vocals?

The Knell · Post by **The Knell** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:09 pm

ION BRITTON wrote:
GJ wrote:It's funny how many metalheads say they hate black metal bands like Nargaroth (who are they?) but listen and respect band like Bathory that gave a kickstart for that genre.

The answer to that is quite simple. Qualitywise there's no comparison between the old bands of the first wave of black metal and most of the newer bands. Why should I listen to a band that recycles for the 1000th time the old Bathory riffs and Quorthon's vocals?

talk about 95% of nowadays heavy/thrash/speed bands and recycling
i think this applies to the whole main genre

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:11 pm

The Knell wrote:talk about 95% of nowadays heavy/thrash/speed bands and recycling
i think this applies to the whole main genre

That is correct too.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:12 pm

I listen to second wave black metal too and it's not all recycling of Bathory/Venom/Mercyful Fate. The problem with Nargaroth and bands like that is that they're self-referencing, they make black metal ABOUT black metal and that's completely navel-gazing moronic scenester shit. Black metal shouldn't be about how much one loves the black metal scene!

Likewise a lot of these retro-thrash bands are write about the clothes and the parties and the moshing etc, it's the same thing. There's nothing more infuriating than bands that take the HM 'shell' and write songs that directly refer to this 'shell' and little else! Even in the 80's the worst songs on the albums I love are usually songs about 'how hard the band rocks', harleys and partying, how much heavy metal is awesome..., those sorts of things. Instead of singing about how awesome metal is, why not show us!

Perhaps my distaste is so strong is because I never deeply belonged to any HM-related subculture and never wished to. It has been explained to me that the 'heavy metal anthems' and the 'beer and party' songs are fan favourites at concerts and such. I never wanted to sing along to something as mundane as 'WE LIKE BEER A LOT!' and that's not why I got into HM but apparently others like this.

bigfootkit · Post by **bigfootkit** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:58 pm

The best example i saw of that call & response sing-along mentality was at a Slayer gig years ago. When Tom Araya posed the age old rhetorical question, "Do You Wanna Die?", he seemed genuinely taken aback by the deafening "YEAAAAHHHHH!" that came back from the audience in Edinburgh and he and Kerry King swapped disbelieving smiles and shakes of the head.
It struck me as a truly odd moment in what at the end of the day was an evening of live "entertainment".
I've never felt truly comfortable taking part in these kind of "herd" moments, but i must admit to it adding to the atmosphere at gigs when there is that type of interaction between band and fans. As Helm rightly points out however, bands do seem to choose their most bozo moments as the sing-a-longs.
Altogether now, "Searchinnnnnnnnnnn, Seek & Destroy".
No thanks, piss right off.

MEXDefenderOfSteel · Post by **MEXDefenderOfSteel** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:00 pm

ION BRITTON wrote:
GJ wrote:It's funny how many metalheads say they hate black metal bands like Nargaroth (who are they?) but listen and respect band like Bathory that gave a kickstart for that genre.

The answer to that is quite simple. Qualitywise there's no comparison between the old bands of the first wave of black metal and most of the newer bands. Why should I listen to a band that recycles for the 1000th time the old Bathory riffs and Quorthon's vocals?

close thread

Sgt. Kuntz · Post by **Sgt. Kuntz** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:03 pm

I don't like listening to the first two BATHORY outputs, as well as to most black metal bands and certainly not the new ones. I personally dislike the whole scene quite a bit, too many bored middle-class kids trying to be evil or misanthropic in a very silly way.

With "Under The Sign Of The Black Mark" and the viking-era albums it's a different story, but i don't know many later Black Metal bands, who could create a atmosphere like that. So BATHORY yes please, Black Metal no thanks!

GJ · Post by GJ » Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:50 pm

Oh, I didn't know I started a new thread...

Anyway I was merely paraphrasing what Erlk. said about numetal and Faith no more for a (-n obviously unsuccessful) humourus twist.

The Erlking wrote:It's funny how many metalheads say they hate numetal but listen and respect band like Fate No More that gave a kickstart for that genre.

I have learnt now not to talk about things that I don't have the slightest knowledge of/respect for. Well at least I used to spin my brother's Bathory debut & The Return albums a few times when I was thirteen (24 years ago).

Now if you would be so kind and escort me back to the Land of Mystery again...

nightsblood · Post by **nightsblood** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:07 am

What Helm said

10 years ago I had more tolerance for redundant HM bands as long as the music was still good. As I'v gotten older I have less and less interest in hearing retro wannabes that bring absolutely nothing of their own to the table

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:54 am

I don’t listen to Metal specifically for the lyrics to begin with, so the subject matter of such an aspect won't turn me off from a band, that's say for example, technically accomplished, or can just write killer riffs. For those that do, however, do you listen Metal with vocals in any other language then English? Theoretically, if you can’t understand what the vocalist is "saying" then wouldn't this cause you to feel uneasy? There are literally lists of bands that seem to just toss vocals into a song because it's the historically correct formulated thing to do. I find this rather contradicting.

metalmaster · Post by **metalmaster** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:31 am

I must say that most of things in Metal are recycled, but at least Thrash and Heavy metal still have interesting things to offer like well played songs for example, or bands sounding actually fresh and naturtal. Black Metal is not the case.

I'm sure none will discover something new in Heavy Metal, but you can always put personality into your music, something no much bands do these days, with a very notorious emphasis in Black and Death Metal. But one thing that maks me sick about this all is the obstination of new bands to play like their idols, and even rip off riffs, lyrics, etc with the excuse of "80's sounding" which is the only true metal in their opinion. That's bullshit. If you look and play like your idols, then a bunch of "true Metallers" will give you tumbs up because you sound 80's even when your music is a carbon copy and total shit. Cast of Iron is an very usable example: They try to be more Running Wild than Runing Wild themselves and sadly COI is regarded as a good band today. That is shit. That will make heavy Metal boring and a parody of itself. If you dont have any personality, you will reflect it in your music and you will be nothing but a second or third class band.

In Black Metal the situation is fairy similar. If you rip off Bathory and later bands like Sarcofago and Blasphemy, then you are "true Black Metal". The funny thing is that Bathory was a band that tried and succeded in creating Heavy metal with a different and personal style. That is very difficult to do. Bands like Black Sabbath and Venom did it and are kings because that. The same for acts like Holocaust and Diamond Head. Mercyful fate and Celtic Frost of course. Even the bands of the so called second wave of Black metal had personality... Mortuary Drape, Rotting Christ, Masters Hammer, even Mayhem and Burzum had their touches, but sadly all ended in the in trash can because of this burning churches paraphernalia which brought as consequense the dead of the style inbodied in those countless of Black Metal bands copying and wiping out of freshness the Black genere.

I used to listen tons of Black metal (and I still do), but simply Black Metal got to the poiint I didnt want to be part of. In 1993 or so I stopped buying BlakcMetal. It is just a parody of itself and a hobby for pretty boys from boring countries or a way of scape from a brutal reality from guys from poor countries.

Bathory is respected by most of Metallers due to their innovation and vision, creating something new in Heavy metal and still being Heavy Metal, while bands liek Nargaroth are nothing but bad copies and bands like Necros Christos is a very boring and failed attempt of being evil while Samael is far of what Heavy Metal is... but the new Beherit is nice!

Professor Black · Post by **Professor Black** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:34 am

I agree with much of what has been said here, and especially with what Metalmaster says about Bathory. Not to muddy the waters, but I am from the school of thought where black metal, for example, is a PART OF heavy metal, something within the greater whole of heavy metal. My classification system is hierarchical, in other words. I realize I am a minority in thinking this way. But I love Emperor and Omen and they are both part of my concept of heavy metal.

That said, everything is a bell-shaped curve, and originality is pretty low on my list of requirements for ANY band.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:33 am

same here. I see a direct line from Black Sabbath to say, Burzum or Skepticism and it really surprises me when other people don't. As you say, hierarchical structure. It's really really interesting that (I posit) when the sub-scenes themselves started to 'stray from the mothership' of Heavy Metal and wanted to be considered something separate (see "Brutal death metal" or modern "black metal") they became increasingly like parodies of genre cliches rather than something distinct and singular as they would have expected.

And it's even more interesting how bands like Negative Plane or Negura Bunget (to talk in the realm of black metal) that see the line from Sabbath to Voivod to Mayhem to themselves, are making music that is still vital.