My experience with bgbssmn2 ...

[Coma]

I don't get why everything related to bgbssmn2 gets deleted right away, but here's my two cents on my experience with him, so that all users here avoid this guy.

In short :

We agreed on a trade, which was basically too good to be true, but I tried anyway, knowing I could easily get my CDs back. We agreed to send both by registered mail on Saturday, and exchange tracking numbers. I gave him the tracking number around noon - haven't heard from him since. How did I avoid losing my CDs? I knew that by sending on Saturday, my package wouldn't leave the facility before Tuesday morning, as Monday is a holiday here in Canada. Knowing the clerk at the post office, it was easy to get my package back today and cancel the shipment.

Now, the long story of how I got suspicious initially, tossing aside the "too good to be true" look of it. I've successfully made quite a few "too good to be true" deals in the past, so I pushed the issue further to make sure I wasn't missing out a fantastic deal.

He claims to be Michael Henegan, and live in Red Lion, PA. I used Google with the address he gave me, and noticed the address was registered to Charlotte Arwine, which I guess is probably his wife. Then, thanks to some wedding site, I found out that a Charlotte Jackson and a Mike Arwine married in Red Lion, PA in 2008. This would explain the Charlotte Arwine name. I didn't stop there, and started to make searches on Michael Arwine. There is a Michael James Arwine in Red Lion, who used the address 'psychehead@hotmail.com' a while back. Guess what? Helstar received an email from this guy back in 2000 or so. Coincidence? Maybe. Suspicious? Definitely.

And let's not forget :

- Entering XXX YYY as his name is suspicious.
- You don't waste time on trade forums when you receive the amount of cancer treatments he claims to be receiving. I lost my father to cancer a few months ago, and he didn't receive half of what this guy claims to have received in treatment ... and he was weak as hell!
- He lives right in front of a CD store - could just be how the owner gets his stuff to sell!
- I offered to do the trade in person, as I was supposed to be in Philly this weekend. He used his medical condition as an excuse.
- I offered him a 6-for-4 considering his CDs were rarer than mine. He insisted to do a 6-for-6, the extra two CDs being Hirax and Morbid Saint ... I only wanted 4 from him for my 6, he wanted to give me 6!
- Initially told me that the deleted Exodus CD was the raw tapes of Bonded By Blood, when in fact, it's the Pleasure of the Flesh demo w/ live tracks from the Ultimate Revenge.
- never asked for references even though we were dealing with rare CDs.

... and there are probably more I can't think of right now. Avoid unless he agrees to send first.

[Helstar]

Thanks for your contribution ! You have been very smart and helpful in your "attempted" trade to discover the truth

I don't know why the admins are deleting all the threads about this guy.

It's almost like they are covering him

People must know what's going on, we don't want anybody being ripped-off, right ?

[ION BRITTON]

Obviously you both are very selective about what you read here. I'm writing this for the 2nd time now, bgbssmn2 will not be trading via this forum anymore. He couldn't provide any references and he requested to delete his thread, which was done. The second thread after Dan's 'announcement' was also deleted for the reason I stated above. His account is also deleted.
That means NO dealings and NO posting on this forum for user bgbssmn2 anymore.

If he returns with another username we'll see what we'll do.

Until then though, if you still think that we're 'almost covering him' I suggest for your own peace of mind not to use this forum for your dealings.

[Coma]

Whether or not he's only trading here is irrelevant - I'd say a large part of the active traders here are dealing on other forums too, not just on the Corroseum. We all use info from various forums to tell if a guy is honest or not.

He initially tried to lure people from here, and a permanent warning should be in place, here and elsewhere. It's just a matter of helping the community of traders avoid getting ripped off, no matter where the guy decides to strike. He could disappear for 6 months, then come back under a different name, and if there aren't any traces of his behavior found anywhere, how will we be able to identify him?

I don't understand why it's such a big fuss for you guys to keep the thread active.

*EDIT* By the way it's Arwine, not Irwine.

[Jack Luminous]

He initially tried to lure people from here, and a permanent warning should be in place, here and elsewhere. It's just a matter of helping the community of traders avoid getting ripped off, no matter where the guy decides to strike. He could disappear for 6 months, then come back under a different name, and if there aren't any traces of his behavior found anywhere, how will we be able to identify him?

Hi. For what it's worth, I totally agree. I've seen several forums with Good/bad trader sticky threads. If you have an active trading forum, like you seem to have here, that seems like a good idea in general, with parasites like this out there.

This guy is no longer merely a suspected scammer, but a proven scammer/thief/liar and he's actively targeting many sites at once. This forum, and the Metal Archives forum are the only places I've seen any warnings about him. If all publicly accessed proof and info about him is erased, as he'd like it to be, he can much more easily operate - now, and in the future.

[ION BRITTON]

The threads are not deleted completely, they are moved to mods forum. We have them and in case we need them again in the future they can come back to surface, just so that you know.

Since the guy in no longer a member of this forum and all his posts were deleted, there's no use in opening 100 different threads for him. Dan made an announcement which should have been enough unless someone has proof that the guy is indeed a rip-off and not only suspicions that he might be one.
Suspecting him being a scammer/liar and accusing him in public without him being here to defend himself doesn't seem very OK to me.

On the other hand if he now is a proven scammer, you might as well tell us what went wrong and that means for example "I sent him two cds and 5 weeks later I have received nothing" and not things like "He was offering me 2 $200 cds and I was offering him 1 $30 cd and just because of that I suspect him of being a rip-off or I'm sure that he is one"

There's a difference between suspecting someone and proving that he is a scammer indeed, there's no need to open 500 threads every time a new member looks suspicious to some of us, especially if it is for reasons like for example his username.

We are thinking of opening a thread with a list of good/bad traders so that everyone knows regardless of whether they're registered here or not, of course with the necessary proof provided.

[Korgüll]

This forum, and the Metal Archives forum are the only places I've seen any warnings about him.

Check this thread from M-A forum:

http://www.metal-archives.com/board/vie ... 22#1583322

Some info there about him using different names on different boards

[Avenger]

Thanks for your contribution ! You have been very smart and helpful in your "attempted" trade to discover the truth

I don't know why the admins are deleting all the threads about this guy.

It's almost like they are covering him

People must know what's going on, we don't want anybody being ripped-off, right ?

We aren't covering for anybody.

It's just that you can't go yelling "scammer this" and "rip-off that" on simple suspicions. You must have an actual failed trade/deal to make such a claim. Coma has had that.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Whether or not he's only trading here is irrelevant - I'd say a large part of the active traders here are dealing on other forums too, not just on the Corroseum. We all use info from various forums to tell if a guy is honest or not.

He initially tried to lure people from here, and a permanent warning should be in place, here and elsewhere. It's just a matter of helping the community of traders avoid getting ripped off, no matter where the guy decides to strike. He could disappear for 6 months, then come back under a different name, and if there aren't any traces of his behavior found anywhere, how will we be able to identify him?

I don't understand why it's such a big fuss for you guys to keep the thread active.

*EDIT* By the way it's Arwine, not Irwine.

Thanks man for one more confirmation. There is STILL common logic out there...

[ION BRITTON]

There is STILL common logic out there...

It was here before Coma's post as well, I just don't understand why we should have sent 40 explanatory posts about why we did this or that regarding his thread/posts. We are not the internet police nor do we have the time to start investigating every PM exchanged or google the address of every member to see if it exists on the map or search in every metal forum about people, the only thing we need is some proof that the trader is a rip-off. If you do not understand that you can't accuse anyone in public because of your suspicions or your failed negotiations, I'm sorry but I can't help much.

To remind you how the whole thing started, after bgbssmn2 posted his want list, user Helstar replied accusing him of being a 'POSSIBLE SCAM ARTIST' because what bgbssmn2 was offering him for trade was of a much higher value than the things Helstar was offering to him. If you think that you can base such accusations on that fact alone, then you must think again.

I think Coma's experience is the best proof that something's wrong with the guy, then again, nothing was sent to either direction, so, if we want to be accurate, Coma was not exactly ripped-off. Besides, Coma himself said "Avoid unless he agrees to send first" which is not the same as saying that the guy is proven scammer.

Finally, if we decide to make that list of good/bad traders and we see that random names are thrown in without the necessary proof provided, we'll have to drop the idea and go back to where we started.

[Helstar]

To remind you how the whole thing started, after bgbssmn2 posted his want list, user Helstar replied accusing him of being a 'POSSIBLE SCAM ARTIST' because what bgbssmn2 was offering him for trade was of a much higher value than the things Helstar was offering to him. If you think that you can base such accusations on that fact alone, then you must think again.

Actually I posted only that warning without saying more details on purpose. I wanted him to reply and fall in contradiction (and that happened of course).
I already knew his name was fake and his 'rare' cds were not existent (no photos).

[Jack Luminous]

I was ripped off. He received my package, I received nothing.
He failed to respond to email about it.

He has been caught lying about things like saying he always sends packages via registered mail and will supply the tracking number. He says in one forum that he's new to online trading and that's why he doesn't have references, then in another forum he claims to have been trading online for years.

Apparently, he has a history as a known con artist.
http://www.metal-archives.com/board/vie ... 10#1582510

He's a 100% rip-off/liar/thief. You can erase any doubts you may still have about that.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

There is STILL common logic out there...

It was here before Coma's post as well, I just don't understand why we should have sent 40 explanatory posts about why we did this or that regarding his thread/posts. We are not the internet police nor do we have the time to start investigating every PM exchanged or google the address of every member to see if it exists on the map or search in every metal forum about people, the only thing we need is some proof that the trader is a rip-off. If you do not understand that you can't accuse anyone in public because of your suspicions or your failed negotiations, I'm sorry but I can't help much.

To remind you how the whole thing started, after bgbssmn2 posted his want list, user Helstar replied accusing him of being a 'POSSIBLE SCAM ARTIST' because what bgbssmn2 was offering him for trade was of a much higher value than the things Helstar was offering to him. If you think that you can base such accusations on that fact alone, then you must think again.

I think Coma's experience is the best proof that something's wrong with the guy, then again, nothing was sent to either direction, so, if we want to be accurate, Coma was not exactly ripped-off. Besides, Coma himself said "Avoid unless he agrees to send first" which is not the same as saying that the guy is proven scammer.

Finally, if we decide to make that list of good/bad traders and we see that random names are thrown in without the necessary proof provided, we'll have to drop the idea and go back to where we started.

Just a few words because I have fever & I don't have the patience to prove that I'm not an elephant.
Don't confuse your "logic" with common logic. It's a common mistake. Even Mr. Mitsos who lives in Dafni & he thinks that he is Alexander the Great repeats the same thing to the doctors : "Common logic says that I shouldn't have been here!"
So I don't care who started the whole thing & who replied. I just posted a couple of facts. Facts can be proved, for example I asked him the matrix of a certain indie (2 friends of mine have the cd already) & he did respond with a fake matrix. I can PROVE that fact even with a photo of the indie in which the matrix is appeared even with the email's headers of my conversation with that Michael. Of course this is not "evidence" it is just a sign. Even in the impossible case he could provide with the real matrix it wouldn't be sure that he has the cd.
Even if you had used YOUR logic (& not common logic of course) that would be easy to realize that even a tracking number can't say much & doesn't constitute an evidence but just a sign. I could send you TONS of tracking numbers with a scanned receipt, that's not evidence. In many Post Offices you usually get just a receipt with the tracking number without any name upon it. So if I'll start saying that you have ripped me off try to PROVE that you didn't do that.
So to make a long story shorten I just tried to ring a bell about that guy because a lot of signs I wrote leads to the conclusion that he is a scam. I could help even 1 collector by my post. Of course your prejudice against me led you to delete the thread. I don't have problem with censorship it's quite common phenomenon when there are no arguments. But if you don't spend more than 15 Euros for your stuff you don't have a problem if you will be ripped off by 2 cds, right? 30 Euros is just a couple of beers in an alehouse.
But if your stuff costs $100+ (each title) & you have the fear to loose the stuff maybe you would think with YOUR logic that would be useful to protect other people. In any case if i'll see even 1 single collector who will be ripped off by him I will forward to him your email address so you can ask him for his "evidences"...

[ION BRITTON]

Actually I posted only that warning without saying more details on purpose. I wanted him to reply and fall in contradiction (and that happened of course). I already knew his name was fake and his 'rare' cds were not existent (no photos).

If you already knew about his fake name or anything else that seemed phony and you could prove it, you should have done that in your very first post instead of writing in those shouty capital letters what you wrote. We are not experts in mindreading and if you posted all those details you would make things easier for all us. I'm not questioning the things you or Neb or Coma are saying per se, I'm not here to question if you are telling the truth about his replies, however if you simply wanted to warn people or post your suspicions about him you could have done it in a much better way. See Coma's post in the beginning of this thread to understand what I'm saying.

So I don't care who started the whole thing & who replied.

I don't care that you don't care about it, the people who are moderating this forum are supposed to take care that things run smoothly in each and every case. I am not here to prove that bgbssmn2 'should' be reliable no matter what if he actually is not, but godammit give me something more concrete than "His username looks suspicious" in order to believe what you're saying.

Re all the other things you wrote...

I already wrote something about those 'evidences' you wrote and I didn't say that those facts were not signs of a suspicious trader, what I said was that for example a fact that he doesn't own a digital camera doesn't necessarily prove that he is lying or he is scamming people. In fact what I wrote was this We don't have to go through all this again, these things might raise a warning banner to all the experienced traders, but they don't necessarily prove something too. I wasn't aware of an actual failed trade at that point and what I was implying was exactly this: It seems phony all the way, but you can't be 100& sure about it yet. Your response about all that prejudice shit says to me that either you didn't read it or you simply ignored it. Your last response feels like I was launching an all-out attack against you in order to cover bgbssmn2 up insisting that he could not be anything else but a trustworthy, 100% reliable trader. Believe it or not, that was neither what I saying nor implying about him.

Like I've said the threads were deleted for the simple reason that bgbssmn2 himself requested that, saying that he COULD NOT provide any references and he did not want to be a part of this forum anymore. That's the reason we deleted his account too. He is not able to trade with that username through this forum anymore. In fact, he cannot even post a single line. But I see none of you were satisfied with that and, not until Jack Luminous' latest post that reports an actual rip-off case, you wanted to continue writing about him, even if you were 'safe' from his deletion for the time being. Jack Luminous btw, a user who we don't know yet as he didn't even have the 1 minute you need to introduce yourself as a new member in this forum before he informed us on the situation with his trade with bgbssmn2.

I said that we would see what we would do in case he returned with another username under a different alias, the threads are not lost, we still have them, but until the last deleted thread there was no proof that the guy had actually scammed someone. Him telling lies is a suspicious yet different thing, but until the last deleted thread noone had lost anything at all. You do have the right to mention the replies he gave you about the matrix numbers and being suspicious about it, but try to remember how the whole thing started and in what way things were written, especially at the very first thread.

Finally, I don't give two shits if you think we are censoring things and hide the things that don't suit us fine, much less when you think that I personally have no arguments to back what I am saying. And let me tell you this: there is not one single thread since the beginning of the forum that was deleted because we wanted to cover anything up. Only one thread was deleted accidentaly once, and we had the decency to come up and say that it was our mistake and it shouldn't have happened. Be sure that if any of the mods was trying to cover things up to his advantage, he wouldn't be in that position for a long time.

To sum it up, if you have proof of a failed trade with any dealer in this forum, let us know what happened and if that dealer cannot prove the opposite then we will take action in order to ensure that all dealings here end well. If do not have anything that concrete though, but you suspect things because of facts that do ring a bell for a trader (e.g. giving wrong matrix numbers than the real ones, but not because a username doesn't make any sense), don't start yelling about rip-offs and scammers but make sure that your post is interpreted by all here the way it should.

[Cochino]

I agree with Ion Britton. If any of you had proof you should've posted it. If you didn't then it was just a matter to who we believed or not. You need to prove things before making accusations, "common logic" doesn't count, we need proof to back it up. In this particular case it was pretty obvious after a while that there was something fishy about that guy, but I've seen in other forums people sayin that X member ripped them off, and then X saying that he was the one ripped off and that went on and on. If you have proof show it, if you don't, just don't accuse anybody.