SORCERY "Sinister Soldiers" LP pressing info site

All vinyl-specific issues goes in this here subforum.
User avatar
outlawrecordings
Posts: 23

SORCERY "Sinister Soldiers" LP pressing info site

Post#1 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:13 am

So as I'd mentioned in that other bootleg thread, I have compiled all the information I could gather about this LP and posted a web site about it. Here's the link:

www.sorcery-sinistersoldiers.webs.com

This should really put the end to the debate on how to identify originals of this LP, once you see the side by side comparisons it's easy. No matter how hard the bootleggers tried, they couldn't get it 100% right. It was interesting to sort through all the information, it was like one of those "spot the differences" games in magazines or something!

I hope this site is of some use to others, I've spent 15 years trying to figure this shit out! haha...

Enjoy!
Last edited by outlawrecordings on Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
***************************
http://www.outlawrecordings.net
***************************

User avatar
metalmaster
Posts: 774
Contact:

Post#2 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:02 am

I think I have an original copy, thanx for the efford!

User avatar
outlawrecordings
Posts: 23

Post#3 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:12 am

metalmaster wrote:I think I have an original copy, thanx for the efford!
No problem, I'm glad it was of use to help you identify your copy! I just wish I'd been able to do this 10-12 years ago so that so many people hadn't wasted so much money on the 'replica' copies! If you look at the number of copies sold and for how much in that "values" page I put up it's crazy. But it was difficult to tell which were the originals, especially if you had never seen one!
***************************
http://www.outlawrecordings.net
***************************

User avatar
Khnud
Posts: 2320

Post#4 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:59 am

Some great info there!

Still, please note that sharing all this info might also help bootleggers create a copy that cannot be distinguished from the original. It's good to leave out some small (but crucial) piece of information, so that even if a new bootleg surfaces, it's still different.
Laugh at you in ecstasy, wallow in the gore.
Blast you with their twisted minds, behold the Dogs Of War.

User avatar
outlawrecordings
Posts: 23

Post#5 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:46 pm

Khnud wrote:Some great info there!

Still, please note that sharing all this info might also help bootleggers create a copy that cannot be distinguished from the original. It's good to leave out some small (but crucial) piece of information, so that even if a new bootleg surfaces, it's still different.
There is no way to completely stop them from getting information, regardless of whether it's posted on the internet or not. I'm supplying the information that will help collectors identify the bootleg from the original, and I'm not going to filter that information in fear of the bootleggers themselves becoming more educated!

The chances are that if somebody is going to make a bootleg they will have an original to have based it off of anyways. The people who made this LP obviously had an an original that they modeled it off. How else would they have scanned the cover, or known how to make the stickers for the labels, etc etc. But there is NO way to completely get something 100% the same, no matter how much information you have. So they had MORE information than I could have ever supplied them with, an 'original' to copy from, and they still got it WRONG.

No matter how hard they try, they will never be able to master it the EXACT same way so that the amount of dead wax or run off grooves are the same on a 'replica'. There will always be subtle (or not so subtle!) but noticeable differences that will make it possible to distinguish.

I'm not going to live "in fear" of bootleggers or giving them too much information. They're going to do the best they can to rip you off. We need to do the best we can to educate ourselves and be wise, that's the best solution!

And in my opinion, if they start to see that the collectors are not going to be fooled it will probably have a greater impact on them than trying to "keep pressing details" from them.
***************************
http://www.outlawrecordings.net
***************************

User avatar
Avenger
Posts: 8188

Post#6 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:05 pm

outlawrecordings wrote:And in my opinion, if they start to see that the collectors are not going to be fooled it will probably have a greater impact on them than trying to "keep pressing details" from them.
The problem is that it's not the "collectors" that are actually buying these bootlegs. Most of the collectors, (at least here anyways) are well informed, do research or just simply buy/trade within a circle of other collectors or trusted distros. Especially when making a large purchase. It's the endless, run of the mill idiots on ebay that we've all seen so many times that are blindly purchasing this crap. Even if the information is out there (which now is because of your website) it's not easily accessible enough to stop these guys from purchasing the bootlegs. I did a quick google search and your website didn't even come up on the first two pages of results.

You posted in the Solar Eagle thread. I’m sure you got the jist of just how many of these bootlegs were sold at a high price even though it was brought to our attention after just a handful of auctions took place. It takes just a couple replica copies of a rare record sold at market value for the sellers involved to recoup their expenses in creating the bootleg and just a couple more after that to make some profit.

Websites like the one you created are a good resource to have but are certainly not going to stop bootlegs from being created or the bootleggers from turning a profit upon early release of these replicas.
bigfootkit wrote:"Your Steel Is Not True"
stormspell wrote:"I hate all my releases. I only listen to Korn and Limp Bizkit, don't you know..."

User avatar
outlawrecordings
Posts: 23

Post#7 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:43 pm

Avenger wrote:
outlawrecordings wrote:And in my opinion, if they start to see that the collectors are not going to be fooled it will probably have a greater impact on them than trying to "keep pressing details" from them.
The problem is that it's not the "collectors" that are actually buying these bootlegs. Most of the collectors, (at least here anyways) are well informed, do research or just simply buy/trade within a circle of other collectors or trusted distros. Especially when making a large purchase. It's the endless, run of the mill idiots on ebay that we've all seen so many times that are blindly purchasing this crap. Even if the information is out there (which now is because of your website) it's not easily accessible enough to stop these guys from purchasing the bootlegs. I did a quick google search and your website didn't even come up on the first two pages of results.

You posted in the Solar Eagle thread. I’m sure you got the jist of just how many of these bootlegs were sold at a high price even though it was brought to our attention after just a handful of auctions took place. It takes just a couple replica copies of a rare record sold at market value for the sellers involved to recoup their expenses in creating the bootleg and just a couple more after that to make some profit.

Websites like the one you created are a good resource to have but are certainly not going to stop bootlegs from being created or the bootleggers from turning a profit upon early release of these replicas.
Personally, I find it hard to believe that it's just "random idiots" buying $600 Solar Eagle LPs. I bet there are some among us who DID buy it, though the may be too ashamed to admit it. I personally even nearly got fooled by one of these bootleg Sorcery LPs myself about 10 years ago, and I know of at least one 'reputable collector' who also got fooled by one.

And I never said it would stop it completely, but if it helps slow them down in the least, or keeps at least one person from buying a fake record then it's worth the effort to me. Better to try and do something than to sit back and complain or ridicule those who get ripped off.

Lastly, the reason it's not coming up in Google is because I just put it up last week. Give it some time.
***************************
http://www.outlawrecordings.net
***************************

User avatar
GJ
Posts: 2254
Contact:

Post#8 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:22 pm

All true collectors should stop buying records in order to lower the demand and thus make life hard for the bootleggers. :D

User avatar
Avenger
Posts: 8188

Post#9 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:47 pm

outlawrecordings wrote:
Avenger wrote:
outlawrecordings wrote:And in my opinion, if they start to see that the collectors are not going to be fooled it will probably have a greater impact on them than trying to "keep pressing details" from them.
The problem is that it's not the "collectors" that are actually buying these bootlegs. Most of the collectors, (at least here anyways) are well informed, do research or just simply buy/trade within a circle of other collectors or trusted distros. Especially when making a large purchase. It's the endless, run of the mill idiots on ebay that we've all seen so many times that are blindly purchasing this crap. Even if the information is out there (which now is because of your website) it's not easily accessible enough to stop these guys from purchasing the bootlegs. I did a quick google search and your website didn't even come up on the first two pages of results.

You posted in the Solar Eagle thread. I’m sure you got the jist of just how many of these bootlegs were sold at a high price even though it was brought to our attention after just a handful of auctions took place. It takes just a couple replica copies of a rare record sold at market value for the sellers involved to recoup their expenses in creating the bootleg and just a couple more after that to make some profit.

Websites like the one you created are a good resource to have but are certainly not going to stop bootlegs from being created or the bootleggers from turning a profit upon early release of these replicas.
Personally, I find it hard to believe that it's just "random idiots" buying $600 Solar Eagle LPs. I bet there are some among us who DID buy it, though the may be too ashamed to admit it. I personally even nearly got fooled by one of these bootleg Sorcery LPs myself about 10 years ago, and I know of at least one 'reputable collector' who also got fooled by one.

And I never said it would stop it completely, but if it helps slow them down in the least, or keeps at least one person from buying a fake record then it's worth the effort to me. Better to try and do something than to sit back and complain or ridicule those who get ripped off.

Lastly, the reason it's not coming up in Google is because I just put it up last week. Give it some time.
How many "collectors" do you know that make spontaneous, uninformed purchases? It comes down to trusting your instincts. If there is ever any doubt, especially with a $600 price tag attached it's wise to avoid the opportunity.
bigfootkit wrote:"Your Steel Is Not True"
stormspell wrote:"I hate all my releases. I only listen to Korn and Limp Bizkit, don't you know..."

User avatar
outlawrecordings
Posts: 23

Post#10 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:10 pm

Avenger wrote:
outlawrecordings wrote:
Avenger wrote: The problem is that it's not the "collectors" that are actually buying these bootlegs. Most of the collectors, (at least here anyways) are well informed, do research or just simply buy/trade within a circle of other collectors or trusted distros. Especially when making a large purchase. It's the endless, run of the mill idiots on ebay that we've all seen so many times that are blindly purchasing this crap. Even if the information is out there (which now is because of your website) it's not easily accessible enough to stop these guys from purchasing the bootlegs. I did a quick google search and your website didn't even come up on the first two pages of results.

You posted in the Solar Eagle thread. I’m sure you got the jist of just how many of these bootlegs were sold at a high price even though it was brought to our attention after just a handful of auctions took place. It takes just a couple replica copies of a rare record sold at market value for the sellers involved to recoup their expenses in creating the bootleg and just a couple more after that to make some profit.

Websites like the one you created are a good resource to have but are certainly not going to stop bootlegs from being created or the bootleggers from turning a profit upon early release of these replicas.
Personally, I find it hard to believe that it's just "random idiots" buying $600 Solar Eagle LPs. I bet there are some among us who DID buy it, though the may be too ashamed to admit it. I personally even nearly got fooled by one of these bootleg Sorcery LPs myself about 10 years ago, and I know of at least one 'reputable collector' who also got fooled by one.

And I never said it would stop it completely, but if it helps slow them down in the least, or keeps at least one person from buying a fake record then it's worth the effort to me. Better to try and do something than to sit back and complain or ridicule those who get ripped off.

Lastly, the reason it's not coming up in Google is because I just put it up last week. Give it some time.
How many "collectors" do you know that make spontaneous, uninformed purchases? It comes down to trusting your instincts. If there is ever any doubt, especially with a $600 price tag attached it's wise to avoid the opportunity.
It's cool man, you're right. I'm not looking for a debate, I was just trying to share some information. Next topic please!
***************************
http://www.outlawrecordings.net
***************************

User avatar
outlawrecordings
Posts: 23

Post#11 » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:49 am

And on a related note, if anyone has or knows of a copy of this 'replica' for sale/trade at a reasonable price please let me know, I would be interested in having a copy of it just out of curiosity! Somebody just emailed me and said they'd found one for $20 (which is about what it should cost!) and that made me think to mention that on this thread. I've immersed myself so much into researching it that I would be interested in seeing a copy of that replica in person!
***************************
http://www.outlawrecordings.net
***************************

User avatar
outlawrecordings
Posts: 23

Post#12 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:10 pm

This is kind of fascinating too, I stumbled across a site that has a 'discography' of the Century Records label based out of Saugus, CA. I had no idea it was an actual label! Check out how much stuff they released.

I guess they just did custom small run stuff, there's some other interesting stuff on there like the "45031...Alkana: Welcome to My Paradise LP (1978), test pressing for hard rock LP" or some of the things on there that were pressed in quantities of 50 copies! It makes me wonder how many copies of the Sorcery were pressed. I had always assumed 500 but it could have been much less.

Anyways, here's the link:

http://forbiddeneye.com/labels/century.html

On an interesting side note, the drummer of Bitch used to live in Saugus, CA... and I went to his 50th birthday party where Bitch played in his living room (and our band opened the 'show'!). That's my only personal Saugus connection, but a funny one!
***************************
http://www.outlawrecordings.net
***************************

User avatar
LethylSteel
Posts: 401

Post#13 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:07 pm

Avenger wrote:
outlawrecordings wrote:
Avenger wrote: The problem is that it's not the "collectors" that are actually buying these bootlegs. Most of the collectors, (at least here anyways) are well informed, do research or just simply buy/trade within a circle of other collectors or trusted distros. Especially when making a large purchase. It's the endless, run of the mill idiots on ebay that we've all seen so many times that are blindly purchasing this crap. Even if the information is out there (which now is because of your website) it's not easily accessible enough to stop these guys from purchasing the bootlegs. I did a quick google search and your website didn't even come up on the first two pages of results.

You posted in the Solar Eagle thread. I’m sure you got the jist of just how many of these bootlegs were sold at a high price even though it was brought to our attention after just a handful of auctions took place. It takes just a couple replica copies of a rare record sold at market value for the sellers involved to recoup their expenses in creating the bootleg and just a couple more after that to make some profit.

Websites like the one you created are a good resource to have but are certainly not going to stop bootlegs from being created or the bootleggers from turning a profit upon early release of these replicas.
Personally, I find it hard to believe that it's just "random idiots" buying $600 Solar Eagle LPs. I bet there are some among us who DID buy it, though the may be too ashamed to admit it. I personally even nearly got fooled by one of these bootleg Sorcery LPs myself about 10 years ago, and I know of at least one 'reputable collector' who also got fooled by one.

And I never said it would stop it completely, but if it helps slow them down in the least, or keeps at least one person from buying a fake record then it's worth the effort to me. Better to try and do something than to sit back and complain or ridicule those who get ripped off.

Lastly, the reason it's not coming up in Google is because I just put it up last week. Give it some time.
How many "collectors" do you know that make spontaneous, uninformed purchases? It comes down to trusting your instincts. If there is ever any doubt, especially with a $600 price tag attached it's wise to avoid the opportunity.
More than you think. I think outlawrecordings was totally right with the Solar Eagle dilemma. When the record (the boot) turned up the very first time you can be sure that even well informed collectors didn't smell the shit because there was no fucking reason to guess it could be a bootleg. Just when the 3rd and 4th and 5th copy surfaced "sealed" they started checking their copies with someone who has an original copy. I'm 100 % with outlawrecordings , there are for sure some members of this site who bought one.
There's another example of how "controlled" do collectors buy. Some years ago when the first Malaysia Metal LP's turned up at ebay the prices were absolutely insane (around 600 $ for a record) because everyone had no clue how much of these records do really exist, what they sounded like and a half year later you could buy those records for 9,99 $ and I'm still buying those from time to time. So much about "controlled" collectiors purchases - it's just the greed that reigns. :wink:

Anyway back to topic, I found one of the 2 "Sinister soldier" LP's in Germany for 2 E so I don't mind it being a bootleg, it isn't even my music. I just wish I could get the other LP too for that price but the seller only had one of the 2 for sale. I think a Heavy Metal fan won't like that band so much because they are too much rooted in the 70's. The "Stunt Rock" Sorcery are much heavier on certain songs and more recommended for Metal fans. "Sinister Soldiers" is 70's Hard Rock, nothing more.
Live your life by your will, learn to be an animal ...

User avatar
Avenger
Posts: 8188

Post#14 » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:09 am

LethylSteel wrote:
Avenger wrote:
outlawrecordings wrote: Personally, I find it hard to believe that it's just "random idiots" buying $600 Solar Eagle LPs. I bet there are some among us who DID buy it, though the may be too ashamed to admit it. I personally even nearly got fooled by one of these bootleg Sorcery LPs myself about 10 years ago, and I know of at least one 'reputable collector' who also got fooled by one.

And I never said it would stop it completely, but if it helps slow them down in the least, or keeps at least one person from buying a fake record then it's worth the effort to me. Better to try and do something than to sit back and complain or ridicule those who get ripped off.

Lastly, the reason it's not coming up in Google is because I just put it up last week. Give it some time.
How many "collectors" do you know that make spontaneous, uninformed purchases? It comes down to trusting your instincts. If there is ever any doubt, especially with a $600 price tag attached it's wise to avoid the opportunity.
More than you think. I think outlawrecordings was totally right with the Solar Eagle dilemma. When the record (the boot) turned up the very first time you can be sure that even well informed collectors didn't smell the shit because there was no fucking reason to guess it could be a bootleg. Just when the 3rd and 4th and 5th copy surfaced "sealed" they started checking their copies with someone who has an original copy. I'm 100 % with outlawrecordings , there are for sure some members of this site who bought one.
There's another example of how "controlled" do collectors buy. Some years ago when the first Malaysia Metal LP's turned up at ebay the prices were absolutely insane (around 600 $ for a record) because everyone had no clue how much of these records do really exist, what they sounded like and a half year later you could buy those records for 9,99 $ and I'm still buying those from time to time. So much about "controlled" collectiors purchases - it's just the greed that reigns. :wink:

Anyway back to topic, I found one of the 2 "Sinister soldier" LP's in Germany for 2 E so I don't mind it being a bootleg, it isn't even my music. I just wish I could get the other LP too for that price but the seller only had one of the 2 for sale. I think a Heavy Metal fan won't like that band so much because they are too much rooted in the 70's. The "Stunt Rock" Sorcery are much heavier on certain songs and more recommended for Metal fans. "Sinister Soldiers" is 70's Hard Rock, nothing more.
Sure, it happens but are these people smart? Definitely not. It still baffles me that people will make such uninformed purchases especially when dropping big bucks. I would have thought that more would do a little research and comparison. There are items out there that I'm interested in and don't know much about but after you contact a few other collectors it's quite simple to get the information you need to be confident in what you are paying for. That being said, we still see these idiots run rampant on ebay and the like for example bidding up the price of an item when there is a copy or two being sold on the very same website for a lower price.
bigfootkit wrote:"Your Steel Is Not True"
stormspell wrote:"I hate all my releases. I only listen to Korn and Limp Bizkit, don't you know..."

User avatar
outlawrecordings
Posts: 23

Post#15 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:49 am

Somebody just got a nice deal tonight on an original of this LP for about $200, looks to be in great shape too!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330666384328
***************************
http://www.outlawrecordings.net
***************************

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests