Yet another discussion about bootlegs

nightsblood · Post by **nightsblood** » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:52 am

Split from Bootleg Warning Thread - LP (2012) thread. /Mod

apollo.ra wrote:Looks like someone got a vinyl pressing machine...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VIRTUE-WE-STAND ... 1e71cbd1c1

I think a new bootleg series will start floating around...
Get ready for those Blue Avatars and the Saint's Revenge 7"s...

Those new boots are a great example of why I don't 'get' completist collectors who are willing to pay a decent amount for boots. These items are obviously brand new, hot off the press. This vendor can obviously make more copies any time he wants, AND he can manufacture an endless stream of such items. So why in the world would you treat such items as legitimate collectibles? You might as well join his 'bootleg of the month' club. At best I'd consider them novelties that you pay a couple of bucks for if you're a completist collector.

Note: my argument doesn't apply to all boots; I can see why people pay a decent amount for some older, hard to find boots. But these new things can be easily reproduced in any quantity at any time, and if you buy one batch he'll just mock up a different batch next month and milk you some more.

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:10 am

nightsblood wrote:Note: my argument doesn't apply to all boots; I can see why people pay a decent amount for some older, hard to find boots. But these new things can be easily reproduced in any quantity at any time, and if you buy one batch he'll just mock up a different batch next month and milk you some more.

Why does age matter? Unofficial is unofficial. Old or new.

Prowler · Post by **Prowler** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:40 am

I've also seen a ton of several Metallica Flexi Bootlegs containing just 1 song from each album in the past months. Each one sold for 9,99 E ...

Nightcrawler · Post by **Nightcrawler** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:58 am

Avenger wrote:
nightsblood wrote:Note: my argument doesn't apply to all boots; I can see why people pay a decent amount for some older, hard to find boots. But these new things can be easily reproduced in any quantity at any time, and if you buy one batch he'll just mock up a different batch next month and milk you some more.
Why does age matter? Unofficial is unofficial. Old or new.

Yes, I agree with you on that, but most of the nowadays bootleggers act far more cocky than in the past. If you look at most fanclub bootlegs from the 80s, they were made available for every "die hard fan" at a fixed normal price, while all those nowadays "limited to 10 copies" are sold on Ebay only and given to the one who pays most....
Some bootlegs seem to be collectibles for long years like for instance "Die Schwarze Maske" are considered as "historical" bootlegs. I guess nightsblood was thinking of those kinds of releases...I would like to own some of those MF bootlegs as well....but not for the price it usually gets sold

Prowler · Post by **Prowler** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:43 am

The 80's bootlegs were (mostly) all made by "fans" for fans and everyone knew it was a bootleg. Nowadays a bootleg was made for just one reason (guess which one?) and except of the matrix codes they duplicate everything 1:1 just to screw off other guys. I remember Lars Ulrich said in an interview that he really loves to get these Metallica live bootleg LP's as he's collecting them too. With the rising of the internet his opinion has changed though ...

nightsblood · Post by **nightsblood** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:53 am

Avenger wrote:
nightsblood wrote:Note: my argument doesn't apply to all boots; I can see why people pay a decent amount for some older, hard to find boots. But these new things can be easily reproduced in any quantity at any time, and if you buy one batch he'll just mock up a different batch next month and milk you some more.
Why does age matter? Unofficial is unofficial. Old or new.

It's not about being unofficial, it's all about rarity. The guy with the green Virtue can keep printing as many copies as he wants; he's not gonna limit it to 10 if he can keep making money. There's a Mercyful Fate 7" boot that surfaced about 10 years ago with claims of a small print run, but there's probably been 300+ copies put on ebay over the years. They either lied about the pressing size or they keep making fresh batches as long as they can keep selling them for a decent price. It's not hard to get and there's no telling how many copies have been made, so why would someone spend more than a few bucks to get a copy?
On the other hand, no one's gonna go back and re-press boots from the 80s like 'Live from the Depths of Hell'. So if someone wants a copy of that boot, I can understand paying a little more for it.

Note: I don't buy many boots at all- I might have a dozen total at most- and I never pay much for them. I can only think of 1 boot I've ever paid > $50 for; usually I won't pay more than $20-25 max.

chatzial · Post by **chatzial** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:01 pm

Prowler wrote:The 80's bootlegs were (mostly) all made by "fans" for fans and everyone knew it was a bootleg.

Some of the vinyl bootlegs in the '80s were made by the same people that started in the '80s independant metal labels (based in Central Europe) that are now huge.

The Knell · Post by **The Knell** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:45 pm

Prowler wrote:I've also seen a ton of several Metallica Flexi Bootlegs containing just 1 song from each album in the past months. Each one sold for 9,99 E ...

russian/polish bud-kon 5" square flexis? these exist for pretty much every more known band in the world. worthless stuff with horrible nonsense coversleeves.

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:38 am

nightsblood wrote:
Avenger wrote:
nightsblood wrote:Note: my argument doesn't apply to all boots; I can see why people pay a decent amount for some older, hard to find boots. But these new things can be easily reproduced in any quantity at any time, and if you buy one batch he'll just mock up a different batch next month and milk you some more.
Why does age matter? Unofficial is unofficial. Old or new.
It's not about being unofficial, it's all about rarity. The guy with the green Virtue can keep printing as many copies as he wants; he's not gonna limit it to 10 if he can keep making money. There's a Mercyful Fate 7" boot that surfaced about 10 years ago with claims of a small print run, but there's probably been 300+ copies put on ebay over the years. They either lied about the pressing size or they keep making fresh batches as long as they can keep selling them for a decent price. It's not hard to get and there's no telling how many copies have been made, so why would someone spend more than a few bucks to get a copy?
On the other hand, no one's gonna go back and re-press boots from the 80s like 'Live from the Depths of Hell'. So if someone wants a copy of that boot, I can understand paying a little more for it.

Note: I don't buy many boots at all- I might have a dozen total at most- and I never pay much for them. I can only think of 1 boot I've ever paid > $50 for; usually I won't pay more than $20-25 max.

Why does rarity matter? Whose to say that this guy won't actually keep this set of bootlegs limited to 10? Do you have proof that he made more then 10 copies? I really don't buy this "for the fans" nonsense that so many guys behind the bootlegs use to justify their actions. They all make money off of these bootlegs whether they are limited to 10 copies or 1000.

We've had this conversation before and I still stand on the principle that if the band/copyright holder isn't going to make the material availible then someone else will illegally.

nightsblood · Post by **nightsblood** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:08 am

Avenger wrote:
Why does rarity matter?

Um,.... because people will pay more for an item if it is rare than if it is not rare.
Did you really just ask that?

Whose to say that this guy won't actually keep this set of bootlegs limited to 10? Do you have proof that he made more then 10 copies?

No, but I gave an example of a recent bootleg advertised as extremely limited when it obviously was not based on copies made available for sale.

I really don't buy this "for the fans" nonsense that so many guys behind the bootlegs use to justify their actions. They all make money off of these bootlegs whether they are limited to 10 copies or 1000.

That doesn't really have anything to do with my point, but I agree with your statement.

We've had this conversation before and I still stand on the principle that if the band/copyright holder isn't going to make the material availible then someone else will illegally.

Um, that was a really different conversation that has no real bearing on this one.
All I'm saying here is that I can see why people would pay a lot for an old, rare bootleg, but I don't see why they would pay a lot for a brand new bootleg that could easily be repressed a month from now.

doomedplanet · Post by **doomedplanet** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:46 am

Its an Avenger statement, they don't always have to make sense, usually they don't....

nightsblood wrote: Did you really just ask that?

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:53 am

nightsblood wrote:
Avenger wrote:
Why does rarity matter?
Um,.... because people will pay more for an item if it is rare than if it is not rare.
Did you really just ask that?

When it's unoffical it doesn't.

nightsblood wrote:
Whose to say that this guy won't actually keep this set of bootlegs limited to 10? Do you have proof that he made more then 10 copies?
No, but I gave an example of a recent bootleg advertised as extremely limited when it obviously was not based on copies made available for sale.

I realize that but you can't use one example and state that it's the same for this situation when you can't prove it.

nightsblood wrote:
I really don't buy this "for the fans" nonsense that so many guys behind the bootlegs use to justify their actions. They all make money off of these bootlegs whether they are limited to 10 copies or 1000.
That doesn't really have anything to do with my point, but I agree with your statement.

Not yours specifically but I'm also stating my own opinion as well.

nightsblood wrote:
We've had this conversation before and I still stand on the principle that if the band/copyright holder isn't going to make the material availible then someone else will illegally.
Um, that was a really different conversation that has no real bearing on this one.
All I'm saying here is that I can see why people would pay a lot for an old, rare bootleg, but I don't see why they would pay a lot for a brand new bootleg that could easily be repressed a month from now.

It does have bearing because we are covering some of the same points that were already discussed. And my point is that if it's old or new it doesn't make a difference. Both should go for peanuts because it's not official and all profits go to the guy that printed it.

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:56 am

doomedplanet wrote:Its an Avenger statement, they don't always have to make sense, usually they don't....
nightsblood wrote: Did you really just ask that?

Thanks for the extremely detailed, in-depth insight into the topic. I thought for sure as someone that formerly ran a label you would have had more to add on the subject...

nightsblood · Post by **nightsblood** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:25 pm

Avenger said:
"When it's unofficial it doesn't"

You could not be more wrong. Whether you like it or not, people will buy bootlegs and they will pay a lot of money for some of them. It is just your opinion that "boots should go for peanuts"; lots of people disagree with you. Watch auctions on ebay any day of the week and you'll see plenty of people willing to pay high prices for boots. You may not like it, but THAT is reality.

Re: why do I doubt this guy's honesty that he'll only make 10 copies? Let's see, he's already dishonest enough to press up bootlegs and make a profit while blatantly violating copyright laws & ebay rules. So why should we assume he's being honest about his pressing size? What, he's an honest bootlegger? There's an oxymoron. By advertising "only 10 made" he's obviously trying to hype the item to maximize profit, but as long as he doesn't flood the market with 'em, he can trickle copies out, sell a lot more than 10, and keep making money. This will make more sense to you if you ever accept the fact that people will pay more for an item- even a boot- if they think it is rare. You think someone would be bidding $66 for his Motorhead single if he said "1,000 pressed"?

The previous discussion focused on whether people should print boots/whether labels should complain when official reissues aren't available. This topic focuses on why people pay a lot for a brand new boot when the pressing size- and thus the rarity- cannot be confirmed.

Trigger · Post by **Trigger** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:02 pm

What is so hard to get really? Avenger says that bootlegs SHOULD sell for peanuts, not what IS happening in reality. I'm with Avenger in this, there are no excuses for deeds like pressing bootlegs and people should not support the bootleggers by buying the stuff. Plain and simple.