Money For Nothing & Music For Free

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:23 pm

Let me remind you that some bands were gaving their material for free... so it can't be always considered as 'stealing'. Some bands never asked anything in return, they just wanted their music to reach as many ears as possible.

If you're a bit realistic in your plans, then you will know that you will receive no or negative answers from most of the bands, that is if you actually find them. Talking about unknown bands of course. That means that a huge percentage of obscure music will be lost forever and you will already know that before it actually happens. You will not have violated any copyrights, but you will have consciously allowed a (rare) part of this music to be lost. In the end, maybe we will have gone one step further and after Angel Witch we'll may hear Cloven Hoof and Elixir as well, but I'm afraid it won't go very far after that point.
I know that I am stealing, but I also know that good music remains good music and it needs to be heard and, whenever is possible, financially or in other way supported as well.

Eskew Reeder · Post by **Eskew Reeder** » Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:42 pm

ION BRITTON wrote:Let me remind you that some bands were gaving their material for free... so it can't be always considered as 'stealing'. Some bands never asked anything in return, they just wanted their music to reach as many ears as possible.

If you're a bit realistic in your plans, then you will know that you will receive no or negative answers from most of the bands, that is if you actually find them. Talking about unknown bands of course. That means that a huge percentage of obscure music will be lost forever and you will already know that before it actually happens. You will not have violated any copyrights, but you will have consciously allowed a (rare) part of this music to be lost. In the end, maybe we will have gone one step further and after Angel Witch we'll may hear Cloven Hoof and Elixir as well, but I'm afraid it won't go very far after that point.
I know that I am stealing, but I also know that good music remains good music and it needs to be heard and, whenever is possible, financially or in other way supported as well.

You don't have to remind me of anything...if you spoke to a band and they gave you permission that is NOT what we are addressing here.

I found 60+ unkown/obscure bands and did legit releases with them...and this was mostly before the advent of the Internet. My brother has done the same in the metal world...this is how things are done legit.

It's infinitely easier to find folks today....as a matter of fact I'd guess that 90% or more of the bands you are referring to could be easily found if the effort was made.

There is indeed one band that I would love to release but have not found the members therefore it will remain unheard until someone with less scruples than me gets their hands on it and decides it should be done without the bands permission.

I've had tapes of bands who have specifically asked me to never play for anyone...and I haven't.

I sleep very well at night....but I couldn't if I was doing it any other way.

Too each his own.

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:03 am

Rockadelic wrote: It's infinitely easier to find folks today....as a matter of fact I'd guess that 90% or more of the bands you are referring to could be easily found if the effort was made.

I'd say that that percentage is arguable. I can mention tons of great demo bands I have heard and most people are not even aware of their existence. I don't even see any labels having any plans releasing any of them any time soon, not sure if they actually know about them or if they are hesitating making a release because they are not sure if people are interested in them or because no one talks about them. I've also googled a lot of band members in order to get some contact, some of them responded, some of them just happened to have the same name, on most cases I never received a reply. I'd say that 90% is really very optimistic.

I dont sleep very well at night, but at least I know that I have spread the word about some good forgotten music I discovered and that when/if the time comes and that music is officially released, some people will go and buy it and support the whole effort after waiting such a long time. And who knows, maybe one of those guys that had heard the 'stolen' music before it's official release is a label owner as well.

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:08 am

Rockadelic wrote:You don't have to remind me of anything...if you spoke to a band and they gave you permission that is NOT what we are addressing here.

You mean that I still have to get permission from a band that actually gave their material for free back in the day and was all for spreading it in as many ways as possible? Doesn't THAT sound absurd to you?

Glockose · Post by **Glockose** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:18 am

This is a list of all the USA bands I cound find on the first page of the poisonoise section. It looks to me like they all could be found

Funeral - I Found
Forte - Never tries
Oblivion - I Found
IronHead - I found and released
St.Elmos Fire - I found
Metalis - I found
Wizard - I found
Vengeance (CA) I found
Causion - I know who found
Damrod - I know who found
King Cobra - I found
Lord Ryur - I found
Lucrecia - I found
Emerald - I found
Mistreater - I found
White Boy - I found
CAB - I know who found
Crime Coltrol - Never tried
Hazardous Waste - I know who found
LA Rocks - I found
Organized Confusion - I found
White Ash - I know who found
Nightchild - I know who found

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:40 am

OK, I'm not gonna post the demo bands I like that are not uploaded in poisonoise and tell me which of them are already found in order to calculate the percentage anew. I'll assume that the percentage is somewhere near that 90%, which I still find very high. What was the result besides probably getting copies from some of the following and why a proper rerelease hasn't seen the light of day so far considering the interest fans show for them:

Oblivion - I Found
Lord Ryur - I found
Mistreater - I found

Were they still interested in releasing their music? Or were they negative about it? Do you think that your and some other label might release their material one day?

Have tried so many times with Lord Ryur, came up with absolutely nothing. I guess it takes something more than a good effort to reach some of those guys

doomedplanet · Post by **doomedplanet** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:54 am

Did you make any effort to help these bands find a label to reissue their stuff or not? Many times a little help is all they need. And I mean, real help, like finding out if they still have decent source material, are they actually interested in reissuing their material and connecting them with real labels that actually like and promote old metal? Most people tracking bands don't go this far. Sometime just finding them is as far as you can go. This spring I helped a US metal band and they were VERY happy with the minor assistance I was able to provide to connect them with a label.

ION BRITTON wrote: I can mention tons of great demo bands I have heard and most people are not even aware of their existence. I don't even see any labels having any plans releasing any of them any time soon, not sure if they actually know about them or if they are hesitating making a release because they are not sure if people are interested in them or because no one talks about them.

Eskew Reeder · Post by **Eskew Reeder** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:05 am

ION BRITTON wrote:
Rockadelic wrote:You don't have to remind me of anything...if you spoke to a band and they gave you permission that is NOT what we are addressing here.
You mean that I still have to get permission from a band that actually gave their material for free back in the day and was all for spreading it in as many ways as possible? Doesn't THAT sound absurd to you?

Jeeez...I'm saying we are talking about posting up music that the band did NOT give you music with permission to distribute it.

If you post up stuff with the band's permission, that is exactly what I'm saying is the RIGHT thing to do..

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:07 am

Most of the time the conversation didn't get that far, but honestly I can't say that I was thinking about reissues and labels. On most cases I hadn't even heard the actual music and all I was asking was a tape or a CDR with some of the songs, I think I have gotten more promises than tapes until now.

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:15 am

Rockadelic wrote:
ION BRITTON wrote:
Rockadelic wrote:You don't have to remind me of anything...if you spoke to a band and they gave you permission that is NOT what we are addressing here.
You mean that I still have to get permission from a band that actually gave their material for free back in the day and was all for spreading it in as many ways as possible? Doesn't THAT sound absurd to you?
Jeeez...I'm saying we are talking about posting up music that the band did NOT give you music with permission to distribute it.

I know what we are talking about. Please read the first post on this page again. The first paragraph of that post was my reply to your implication on the page before that anything that is shared online is considered as stealing.

Eskew Reeder · Post by **Eskew Reeder** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:25 am

ION BRITTON wrote:
Rockadelic wrote:
ION BRITTON wrote:
You mean that I still have to get permission from a band that actually gave their material for free back in the day and was all for spreading it in as many ways as possible? Doesn't THAT sound absurd to you?
Jeeez...I'm saying we are talking about posting up music that the band did NOT give you music with permission to distribute it.
I know what we are talking about. Please read the first post on this page again. The first paragraph of that post was my reply to your implication on the page before that anything that is shared online is considered as stealing.

Let's make this perfectly clear....if you are sharing music online that the band is aware of and has given you permission to share with the world, that is obviously not "stealing".

Arguing semantics instead of the obvious crux of the matter is silly.

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:39 am

Are we playing some kind of verbal game here? Did I write something indecypherable a few posts above? I perfectly understand what you're saying. But above I was saying something else replying to your generalization of 'stealing music': some bands, especially from the punk/HC movement, used to give their stuff away for free and they wanted people to spread their music as much as they could without expecting anything in return, it's not considered as stealing if 20 years later some people continue to spread the music of those bands like it was done before and without having to get permission every time. You agree with this or not?

By reading the first post of yours I also want to ask you

I know some people argue that selling a used record also cuts out the artist from any profit but the truth is they received their deserved profit when the record was originally purchased.

Doesn't that deserved profit thing apply to the bands that have only a demo or a 7" put out 100 years ago and they see now their music being uploaded on the internet? What is it so different between sellers and uploaders on this case?

Eskew Reeder · Post by **Eskew Reeder** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:48 am

This really has become a nit-picking pissing match with "what-ifs" and exceptions to the rule.

If you can rationalize that musicians you never spoke to truly want you to spread their music without giving them any type of say or compensation, whether it's 20 years later or yesterday, more power to you.

I know how easy it is to do it the right way, and have always chosen that route.

Entitlement and assumptions are never good practices from my viewpoint.

You're going to do your thing and I mine......technology might change but right vs. wrong seldom does.

doomedplanet · Post by **doomedplanet** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:49 am

we miss your label....

[quote="glockose"]This is a list of all the USA bands I cound find on the first page of the poisonoise section. It looks to me like they all could be found

/quote]

ION BRITTON · Post by **ION BRITTON** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:01 am

Rockadelic wrote:This really has become a nit-picking pissing match with "what-ifs" and exceptions to the rule.

If you can rationalize that musicians you never spoke to truly want you to spread their music without giving them any type of say or compensation, whether it's 20 years later or yesterday, more power to you.

I know how easy it is to do it the right way, and have always chosen that route.

Entitlement and assumptions are never good practices from my viewpoint.

You're going to do your thing and I mine......technology might change but right vs. wrong seldom does.

Yeah, I know that I am wrong along with several other thousand people on the internet and I have already admited that. Uploading without the bands' permission is prohibited and should be punished. No ifs or whatifs or whatever are allowed.

However I asked you a question about something you said in your opening post and you chose not to answer it. Not that I will lose my sleep because of that, but if you can't see the contradiction between those words and what you posted after that, I don't know what else to say.