Money For Nothing & Music For Free

[Eskew Reeder]

I lurk here more than post and if this has been discussed here in the past I apologize.....my brother and I were discussing this today and I thought it would be interesting to see where the members here stand on this topic.

I ran a label for 20 years where, for the most part, I searched for unknown and in some cases unreleased music and made it available to the masses(300-1,000 people) while making sure the band got paid.

I stopped doing this a few years ago for a variety of reasons with one of them being the fact that within a week of releasing an LP it would appear for free download on various websites.

Being from the "old school" where sharing music with a few friends via making a cassette, I have a hard time wrapping my head around making music, that you don't own the rights to, available for literally 10,000's of people to download for free while the band gets nothing...

I know some people argue that selling a used record also cuts out the artist from any profit but the truth is they received their deserved profit when the record was originally purchased.

For me it's kind of disturbing to see people taking music they have no rights to and posting it up on their site for free distribution. I know that I personally, and others I know, have stopped sharing music online for this very reason(or only post half a song to whet someone's appetite to then go out and purchase OR legally re-issue the music).

This is a debate that has had much discussion amongst Psych collectors and I am curious to see the opinions of Metal heads, both young and old.

Today, posting music up to "share" can/has resulted in both bootleg copies being produced and sold as well as legit re-issues never coming to fruition because it's already out there for free.

School my old ass.

[malegys]

I don't think you'll find alot of "commercialy available" things being shared here,mate. It's mostly demos,rehearsals,live sets,radio broadcasts OR stuff that IS out of print,deleted or unreleased. I certainly think there is a definate link between say Psych & Metal collectors. I myself am probably more of a Kosmische musik (Krautrock) & punk/HC fan & collector than a metal one,but still..Anyway. Great opening post.Welcome!!

[Eskew Reeder]

Thanks for the reply.....One of my points was that if you post stuff that's not commercially available, that may prevent it from becoming commercially available in the future.

For instance, if a band approached you to put out their unreleased demo tapes, which would involve a lot of work and monetary investment on your part, would the fact that it's already available for free online make you hesitant to release it??

[Ernest Thesiger]

Great opening post.

It's his tenth.

[doomedplanet]

Hey Rich,
your questions/views are good ones, but let me make some comments from my point of view.
I have too much music. I feel buried in records, but I'm not complaining of course. So for me I 100% need some sound samples/download, whatever anymore if I'm going to fork out the cash to add some more music to the collection. I'm sick and fucking tired of buying some punk ass lame pop/folk/grind/keyboard oriented shit that I hate, wasting my money.

Everything that I can download, if I like it and it comes up for sale, I'll buy it. If I feel like I can afford it, that is, since I download a lot of expensive stuff I doubt I'll get to own just due to rarity and demand.

A perfect example of something that is easily available for download is ALKANA. It has never been reissues (maybe there is a boot cd, I don't care). If it were ever to get an official vinyl reissue with a nice package I'll buy it in a heartbeat. So will lots of other maniacs. The people that download and don't buy were not going to buy it anyway to begin with. So from this point of view downloads have helped keep the memory of this rare record alive.

There are bootlegs out there, when the band finally gets their shit together and release it properly, it sells just fine.

[Trigger]

If you ask 99.9% of the bands,they will tell you that people should hear it for free when they don't have the dream to become Metallica.They make music for people to hear in the first place.The fact that the record will be bootlegged is because of collector's stupidity and that only.if you buy records,you will buy the one that you like anyway,so it takes nothing from the band.I know a few people that can't afford to spend a single penny of their hard-earned cash to buy a record,music products aren't for them?We all grew up trading home tapes(if you were born before 1987 or so).It's the underground that kept metal alive and the bands you are referring to are underground mainly and long disbanded.They all want their music to be played,no matter how or what.I see nothing wrong with that,piracy never killed music,it harmed the labels.Re-issues you make will be in 300-500 pieces,if the record is good,all copies will go,you know that.If it's not good,you issue several colors and they vanish again.So let some do their "collecting" and others listen to their music guys.

[Eskew Reeder]

Hey Rich,
your questions/views are good ones, but let me make some comments from my point of view.
I have too much music. I feel buried in records, but I'm not complaining of course. So for me I 100% need some sound samples/download, whatever anymore if I'm going to fork out the cash to add some more music to the collection. I'm sick and fucking tired of buying some punk ass lame pop/folk/grind/keyboard oriented shit that I hate, wasting my money.

Everything that I can download, if I like it and it comes up for sale, I'll buy it. If I feel like I can afford it, that is, since I download a lot of expensive stuff I doubt I'll get to own just due to rarity and demand.

A perfect example of something that is easily available for download is ALKANA. It has never been reissues (maybe there is a boot cd, I don't care). If it were ever to get an official vinyl reissue with a nice package I'll buy it in a heartbeat. So will lots of other maniacs. The people that download and don't buy were not going to buy it anyway to begin with. So from this point of view downloads have helped keep the memory of this rare record alive.

There are bootlegs out there, when the band finally gets their shit together and release it properly, it sells just fine.

Rob....I agree 100% that if you're going to buy an LP you should hear some sound samples....pre-Internet upstanding dealers would play clips over the phone so you knew what you were spending your money on.

To me, that is a lot different than downloading an entire LP w/artwork. This can cause a variety of things and I'm just suggesting that some of them are not in the bands best interest.

[Eskew Reeder]

If you ask 99.9% of the bands,they will tell you that people should hear it for free when they don't have the dream to become Metallica.They make music for people to hear in the first place.The fact that the record will be bootlegged is because of collector's stupidity and that only.if you buy records,you will buy the one that you like anyway,so it takes nothing from the band.I know a few people that can't afford to spend a single penny of their hard-earned cash to buy a record,music products aren't for them?We all grew up trading home tapes(if you were born before 1987 or so).It's the underground that kept metal alive and the bands you are referring to are underground mainly and long disbanded.They all want their music to be played,no matter how or what.I see nothing wrong with that,piracy never killed music,it harmed the labels.Re-issues you make will be in 300-500 pieces,if the record is good,all copies will go,you know that.If it's not good,you issue several colors and they vanish again.So let some do their "collecting" and others listen to their music guys.

Let me get this straight.....

You believe that 99% of the musicians out there that have recorded music, when given a choice between getting paid for and retaining the rights to their music vs. giving it away for free, would choose the latter?

I have literally spoken to 100's of these folks, albeit not Metal artists, and I can tell you that you are wrong.....99% of them would choose to get paid and/or have control over how their music is used/distributed.

Getting your music into the right hands can get you paid for publishing and copyright as well as copies sold....and in some cases, use in movies/film/ads that pay significantly.

Putting it up on the internet for free without the artists permission only benefits one party....the free listener.

[Cochino]

The fact that labels owners often seem to be missing when they do this kind of posts is that Metal is a pretty niche business and right now there's too many bands and way too many distros, each one of them getting just a small percentage of what labels did at other times? You really think metal sells less now than it did back in the tape trading days? I'm pretty sure it sells even more, there's no people getting rich at it because there's way too much offer. Prices are fucking nuts as well. And what about 0 day bands getting die hard special vinyl releases for their debut and stuff like that? If the business was so bad it wouldn't happen. I know it didn't happen in the 80s. Sure, there's piracy too, but it always have been things like that, and most people who download and don't buy a record probably wouldn't buy it anyway.

[nightsblood]

Nice post! There are good points on both sides of this issue. Here are my thoughts, for whatever they're worth (probably much less than I estimate! ):

I'm in the same boat as Rob; if I hear it and I like it, I will make every effort I can to buy it, money and space (and wife) allowing. I don't buy some reissues b/c I already have the original, or I'm holding out for the original.

I agree that sharing any in-print items is a no-no. So yes, if someone takes a brand new item that you just reissued and posts it online, that sucks big time.

I agree people shouldn't be trying to make money off posting music. Things like "make a donation" buttons on blogs, charging for full d/ls of old stuff, burning homemade CDRs to sell, etc is pretty underhanded IMO.

I can understand people's frustration at sharing something with a few folks, then seeing it made available for every jerk with a laptop to d/l. I think this reflects a generation gap in terms of availability of information and the value we attach to it. We older farts remember what it was like busting your ass to track down info (and not just music-related): we wrote letters, called people, visited libraries, and searched for weeks-months-years for the info we wanted. Thus, we valued that information. Today, Google + Wikipedia = what you want to know in a few minutes. Information is easily obtained, so there's no real value assigned to it. That's true whether you're researching Roman history or looking for a song by Booby and the Fun Bags. Younger people view information as free, and mp3s are just another form of information.

example- last record show I was at, some guys were gawking at a dealer who had the Valhalla EP for sale at $150. They'd never heard of it; so they both whipped out i-phones, dialed up Metal Archives, and in less than 2 minutes they knew how long it was, read a review of it, and were loading up popsike to see if the price was fair. They then d/l'ed it to see if it was any good. Neither guy bought it. At that point, the record had been stripped of its allure. They learned everything about it and downloaded a copy in a few minutes; at that point, most people are not gonna attach much value to the physical item. The dealer and I just exchanged sad looks once they wandered off.
(Hilarious side-note: one guy asking for Epic Metal on vinyl was stymied by a Warlord album; after he left the dealer and I again just looked at each other and said almost simultaneously, "how the fuck do you get to wanting Epic Metal on vinyl yet you've never heard of Warlord?!" ).


OK, now one big question I have: should a person NOT share some old recording online based on the possibility that it might eventually be made available via a legit release? A TON of stuff will never get a proper release for myriad reasons. At what point in time is it fair to say that the band and the reissue labels have had their chance, so now it's ok to post it online? Is it ever ok?

Two examples:

--Glockose has a demo tape listed on ebay right now; he mentions that OPM was interested in doing a reissue, but it never came to pass. Is it now ok for folks to post that demo online, or should they not post it, just in case another label wants to try again in 5 years?

--The vocalist of Chalice has been posting here about efforts to get some old Chalice material reissued properly. The problem is that he hasn't been able to track down any useable old tapes. If he gives up and says, "sorry, I can't find the material so the project is dead for now", should people still hold back on sharing Chalice mp3s just in case useable tapes eventually surface?

For most recordings, the only practical options are that they either get shared online or they only get heard by those who own old analog copies. One could make the argument that NOT sharing music could hurt a band's chances of getting a legit reissue done. When an u/l generates a lot of excitement, it doesn't take long for a label owner to try tracking the band down. Without the u/l, there might not be enough interest in the recording for a label to consider reissuing it.

[Eskew Reeder]

Great post as well....

I figure if you are going to make a tangible item (ie. complete LP to download w/artwork) available to 1,000's of people, and most musicians truly want their music made available for free, contact them and get their permission. In this day and age of the Internet it's certainly easy enough to contact at least one band member.....sounds like the right thing to do to me.....bootleggers especially take note.

[nightsblood]

Great post as well....

I figure if you are going to make a tangible item (ie. complete LP to download w/artwork) available to 1,000's of people, and most musicians truly want their music made available for free, contact them and get their permission. In this day and age of the Internet it's certainly easy enough to contact at least one band member.....sounds like the right thing to do to me.....bootleggers especially take note.

Ideally, you could get the bands to put their own product online and, if they want, charge a modest d/l fee so money goes straight into their pockets. Sites like CDBaby are meant to work like this.

Of course, then you run into other problems. 2 members cannot be contacted to grant permission. Or 1 member doesn't want their old stuff to ever see the light of day (I think it's called 'Joey Tafolla syndrome' ). Or the band is fine with it, but they don't own the rights anymore- so you contact the label and they say, "no, we have no plans to ever reissue it or allow anyone else to reissue it, but we won't give you permission to u/l it either" (that's "Mike Varney Syndrome" if I recall correctly).

Man, Life is Hard

[Keir]

There is also the possibility that spreading mp3s of obscure music creates a demand for reissues. For example, would BBTAD have reissued Max Planck if the demo hadn't been circulated? Maybe, but I wouldn't have bought it if I hadn't heard them already.

That being said, I am mostly in agreement with you rockadelic.

[Trigger]

If you ask 99.9% of the bands,they will tell you that people should hear it for free when they don't have the dream to become Metallica.They make music for people to hear in the first place.The fact that the record will be bootlegged is because of collector's stupidity and that only.if you buy records,you will buy the one that you like anyway,so it takes nothing from the band.I know a few people that can't afford to spend a single penny of their hard-earned cash to buy a record,music products aren't for them?We all grew up trading home tapes(if you were born before 1987 or so).It's the underground that kept metal alive and the bands you are referring to are underground mainly and long disbanded.They all want their music to be played,no matter how or what.I see nothing wrong with that,piracy never killed music,it harmed the labels.Re-issues you make will be in 300-500 pieces,if the record is good,all copies will go,you know that.If it's not good,you issue several colors and they vanish again.So let some do their "collecting" and others listen to their music guys.

Let me get this straight.....

You believe that 99% of the musicians out there that have recorded music, when given a choice between getting paid for and retaining the rights to their music vs. giving it away for free, would choose the latter?

I have literally spoken to 100's of these folks, albeit not Metal artists, and I can tell you that you are wrong.....99% of them would choose to get paid and/or have control over how their music is used/distributed.

Getting your music into the right hands can get you paid for publishing and copyright as well as copies sold....and in some cases, use in movies/film/ads that pay significantly.

Putting it up on the internet for free without the artists permission only benefits one party....the free listener.

I think I made it clear and said that "if the band has no vision to become Metallica" and I especially referred to bands that are no longer active and dealers offer in their lists(each time I use you/your,I use plural and I mean the dealers).What you seem to forget is a little history,heavy metal was a mass movement to start with and always referred to the masses,it is not music for the few wealthy.I have talked to half of the bands you have talked to and they told me t this point they have no problem when people d/l their music,they even feel flattered people still show interest in their past efforts.I even know bands that they send stuff to people for u/l.What about that then?I never said it's right the blog guys should make money out f it or about that donation crap,I'm totally against.I don't have many mp3s myself,I don't even own my own PC,I prefer buying originals,but I have no prob with it either.However,I don't have to support the collecting stupidity with 5 different pressings of a re-issue with 5 dif cover arts and 5 dif vinyl colors.Metal is the most commercial music and that's why several "vultures" jumped onto the train.I can understand why you dealers don't like losing your $$,but as soon as it's not fair what you do,I don't care either.If you think that bands get their share because when you buy 100 copies of a rare record you pay them peanuts,that's fine,but I can't agree with that.How many bands that you have tracked down know about the price their record was sold afterwards.Give me one band that you told them "Hey man,your record sells for 150$,I'd like to buy 50 copies,how much would you ask for them?".I have always considered dealers as vinyl "pimps",so if you don't like that some people are debunking your lists,I don't have to support you and set these people in orderly disposal!I would never pay a dealer 100$ for a record,and if I do ever pay this money,be sure I will pay it to a band only.Metal will always be without the dealers,it can't be without bands though....

[doomedplanet]

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