Is it ever OK to sell a bootleg?

Dodens Grav · Post by **Dodens Grav** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:37 pm

Black Axe wrote:I don't think it would be a problem if it's an quite old release and the material is really rare(never saw an official reissue), and if you clearly mention it's a bootleg/not an official release.

This is what I wanted to say. I don't think it's all that terrible to sell a bootleg as long as you make it explicitly clear to potential buyers what it is that they'll be getting. Some people don't mind buying bootlegs, but they should still be informed. I don't think it's a matter of "buyer beware" at all. The seller is misrepresenting himself if he's selling an item that he doesn't list as a bootleg, implying that it's legitimate.

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:39 pm

I don't have problems with the selling of bootlegs if it's clearly stated as such and the seller is not in it to make a profit. Also, if there was never an official release of said bootleg on a certain format, I believe that it's the bands own fault in this case for not making the material available.

I recently cleared out a bunch of bootleg CD's that have accumulated over the years for less then $2.00 USD each just to cover the packaging costs. I didn't want them anymore and so I moved them on to people that willingly did at no personal gain.

Khnud · Post by **Khnud** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:38 am

Levi wrote:Buried between Time and Dust will be releasing Judgement of the Dead/Vol1 and Time Lord on vinyl again, because the initial presses are being sold for 100+ euros.

Blast! I'd better trade/sell my copy straight away then!

nightsblood · Post by **nightsblood** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:55 pm

Dodens Grav wrote: I don't think it's a matter of "buyer beware" at all. The seller is misrepresenting himself if he's selling an item that he doesn't list as a bootleg, implying that it's legitimate.

I disagree. The seller isn't implying anything about the legitimacy of a record just by listing it.

If a person buys something without knowing what it is, they have no business complaining later on when they realize what they really got. If you don't research the purchase beforehand, then you are taking a chance on getting stuck with a lemon. Yeah, you can claim the seller was a jerk for selling you a dud, but did the seller hold a gun to your head and force you to buy it? No, you made the decision, so live with the consequences of your choice to purchase something without getting your facts straight.

If that sounds callous, I grew up going to flea markets all the time w/ my dad (and that's all ebay is- one big online flea market) and I learned early on that people are always out to get the best of each other in any transaction. The seller wants the most money possible, the buyer wants to spend as little as possible. BOTH parties need to know what they are doing or they're gonna get ripped off. I have no problem with a buyer or seller getting the best of someone AS LONG AS they are not flat-out lying. If a seller says "I don't know what press it is, it looks old to me", well, then it's up to the buyer to know what the item is. If the seller says "yes, that's an original pressing" and the buyer knows it isn't, then yes, the seller should be called out.

Dodens Grav · Post by **Dodens Grav** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:26 pm

Bootlegs are illegal to sell to begin with.

nightsblood · Post by **nightsblood** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:10 pm

Dodens Grav wrote:Bootlegs are illegal to sell to begin with.

No one's arguing the legality.

Again, you can say, "that guy was a jerk for selling me a bootleg album", but he didn't force you to buy it. Unless he flat-out lied to you and claimed it was an original, don't come crying to me about getting ripped off because you didn't research the item before you bought it.

I suspect that such complaints have very little to do with the legality of the bootleg. I think most complainers are embarrassed/mad at themselves for getting stuck with an inferior item. Boots are never worth as much as the original item, and there can be a huge gap in quality too. The buyer doesn't want to admit they bought a piece of junk, so they claim they were victimized. "Boo-hoo! Someone took advantage of me and sold me illegal merchandise!". Well, if you had checked out the item in the first place, you would have known that it was a bootleg and then you would not be sitting there stuck with it and feeling stupid.

Heck, it's happened to me- I've bought a couple of records/cd's without double-checking to ensure they weren't boots and I got burned. You won't hear me crying about it though; the sellers didn't lie to me, and I knew what I was doing. I took a chance and I lost.

Buyers LOVE to take advantage of sellers and get a rare/expensive item for a cheap price. But when the seller takes advantage of the buyer, it's suddenly so unfair or illegal or morally wrong.

Bottom Line- both people should know what they're doing. That way, no one will end up feeling ripped off.

Dodens Grav · Post by **Dodens Grav** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:38 pm

Of course legality is part of the equation. Sins of omission are also part of that legality charge. Knowingly selling somebody a bootleg item, aside from the fact itself that it's a bootleg, and not informing the buyer that it's a bootleg, can get you in legal trouble. Obviously petty shit like bootlegs of obscure 80s metal bands isn't going to cause much of a stir and isn't worth suing over, but that's neither here nor there with respect to the responsibility of the seller.

Andreas · Post by **Andreas** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:05 pm

I don't have problems with bootlegs. For me it's like downloading an album.

Bootlegs gave me the opportunity to buy albums, I can never own.

For instance Legend - From the Fjords.

I would gladly pay money for a Flames of Hell bootleg on vinyl.

I do think bootleggers should have the honesty to not make profit on the bootleg.

metalmaster · Post by **metalmaster** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:19 am

I think most of us buy and have boots in our collections. It is ok as boots help people to get a very expensive record in an non-mp3 or burned cd format... Also paying lots of money for some records is out of discussion for people who has not enough money to cover all expenses and immportant things in life, for instance eating.

decibelrebel · Post by **decibelrebel** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:10 am

Bootlegs that are offering something different or obscure, live gigs, rare photos and shit like that, old slayer, metallica, motley crue, misfits etc. those bootlegs are great - real "fans only" kinda releases showing tribute to the band.

This Pagan Altar bootleg on the other hand is not so much a bootleg as it is a pirate copy, the layout is boring as all shit, a deceptive release that tributes the band in NO way.

For the record I think its ok to sell bootlegs but at bootleg prices - the quality is second rate and price should reflect this, disappointingly ebay argues for the opposing in this debate.

I understand (and encourage) the motivation behind this campaign to keep pirate releases of Pagan Altar off ebay.

DeathMetalWeenie · Post by **DeathMetalWeenie** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:24 am

Bootlegs are a necessary evil....Because the CD age started around 1990, and I stuck with vinyl til 1997. So I am sure alot of record executives were sticking with vinyl long after CD became the medium of choice for the record buying public.

I think it is funny that Reborn classics release albums like Satan's "Court in the Act" and Abattoir "Vicious Attack". When that was going on Roadrunner was in a Death Metal wave so Court in the Act stayed in the Vaults. I am sure Neat Records were not even a major player back then. And for Combat. Relativity was selling rap records. When the Vicious Rumors bootleg came out.

Thinks like bootlegs happen because Shrapnel Records, could careless about there initial output, because at one point Mike Varney only care about soul-less wankery records, and many classics had to be picked up on CD as a licensed product, or on the crappy Pricekillers series by Roadrunner, or on a reborn classic release...Old Metal did some excellent releases, while most labels were just following one trend after another.

Sometimes the vinyl or cassette gets to hard to find, and ends up as a high priced collectors item. So if it comes down to buying a original vinyl for $90.00 or the cassette for $100.00. I will wait til the price comes down, while that is happening, the over-inflation causes the bootlegging. So I get the bootlegs, until I can find the first pressing for a reasonable price.

Some things like Culprit's "Guilty As Charged", or Hawaii's "One Nation Underground". I do not think they will ever get a proper CD edition like the Sentinel Steel and High Vaultage Records version of the re-editions that they manufacture.

I like some bootlegs because some of them are replicas (of the back layouts) of the original vinyl versions, and do not have any of that internet address crap on them.

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:12 am

DeathMetalWeenie wrote:Some things like Culprit's "Guilty As Charged" I do not think they will ever get a proper CD edition

But it does.