Helm wrote:I live and breathe Heavy Metal because I not only listen to it and enjoy it, but because I try to understand it and I express myself through it, foremost.
Wow, quote of the year for one of the most ridiculous things that I've ever read.
What's so ridiculous about it? Different people have different concepts of HM. Trying to understand better the things you love most by studying, analyzing and discussing them or through creation is a very healthy approach I think. Does it deprive something from someone? You don't have to take a part in these processes. I don't think Helm wants to force his concept of Heavy Metal to everyone but to spark some discussion about our relationship with it using his own as an example at times. If it's the "live and breathe" part that sounds ridiculous, well it's an expression and can be read in multiple ways. 'To live' is a physical condition but we have always given it different, more individual meanings. I don't have problems with other people having their own definitions of existence. I have my own.
The Corroseum is by far the best metal forum I know but I think we can do without the increasing number of insults here.
"The very Hemoglobin of a persons blood is based on IRON! The same Iron in the earth that you turn into STEEL, that is in everyone." -Michael Coffey, Stone Vengeance
Wait a minute, so Helm is "ridiculous" for saying he lives and breathes Heavy Metal and tries to understand it and express himself through it? Isn't that what half of the "godly" metal albums a lot of you spend a shitload of money preach lyrically and in their linear notes? Would Mark Shelton or Harry Conklin ever be insulted for making such a statement if they posted on these forums? What about some major league collector guy..would he be insulted for making such a statement? I don't post on any metal forums besides this one because nearly every single one I've ever visited comes off as completely childish(and full of bad taste:P) However, some of the responses to this thread and the "spiritual metal" thread seemed genuinely pissed off and are a bit insulting. So heavy metal is mere entertainment, something to collect or whatever as proclaimed by a few of you, but certainly there is room for those who see heavy metal as something bigger and more personal. No need to get riled up when someone wants to analyze a piece of heavy metal music or delve deeper into lyrical content or start a discussion on the more esoteric aspects of musical expression.
Personally, the only threads I'm interested in reading and participating in are threads of this nature. I spend a lot of my time thinking about heavy metal and it's role in my life, it's a very important and prominent part of who I am and not so much on the surface level(dressing like a metalhead, going to shows, etc)but on an internal level. Mentally stimulating discussions about metal shouldn't be frowned upon. If you find them useless, don't participate. Please note that Helm has been nothing but a gentleman in his replies but perhaps he just isn't well liked around here nowadays...which is a shame really.
Saying that you "live and breathe Heavy Metal" is the kind of thing that people quote as a joke when mocking kids that are trying to prove how "troo" and "kvlt" they are. I'm sorry but that's going too far. It's trying too hard and that's not what "Metal" is about. Regarding the over-analyzing of the music, I’m pretty sure that the artists that wrote the material we all love did not intend for it be dissected into redundancy. I'm not saying that you can’t have a more personal or serious "relationship" with Metal, but all of these clichés that are comparable to what you can read about in any romance novel come off as ridiculous and cheesy. I'm sorry, if any of this comes off as offensive, but I can't take this kind of stuff seriously, as I'm sure anyone else that you had a conversation with in the same way outside of the internet would.
bigfootkit wrote:"Your Steel Is Not True"
stormspell wrote:"I hate all my releases. I only listen to Korn and Limp Bizkit, don't you know..."
Enough with the easy insults and enough with the easy humour. I am not a kid, I am older than you in fact. I make Heavy Metal, I don't just collect it. I don't know about 'trying too hard' but perhaps you could start by trying a little to take other people's beliefs and positions as something else than a dull joke.
You are demeaning a subject with your apparent inability to 'take me seriously'. I don't particularily care if you can take me seriously or not, I'd just like to not hear about it all the time, if you can't. I've had serious discussions about Heavy Metal with a lot of people, both off line and on line. Some of them here in fact. So your certainty about how nobody would take 'living and breathing Heavy Metal' seriously is not only blatantly unfounded, it is also extremely insulting exactly because it rests on disregarding the discreete parts of reality that don't suit your argument.
How many more times do I need to be insulted by you?
Last edited by Helm on Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
People disagree, so what? I'd be of the opinion that Heavy Metal (and all its sub-genres) is an art form. Once an artist lets go of their piece of art it is open to to be consumed in whatever way the consumer sees fit. On Monday I might really enjoy Liege Lord or whatever, on Tuesday I might hate it. On Wednesday I might read the lyrics and analyse them. That's up to me and no-one else. I buy the record, I can do whatever I want with it. Helm wants to intellectualise the art he loves (or doesn't love - that's up to him, but I would give the benefit of the doubt to him), somebody else just wants to bang his/her head. It doesn't matter! At the end of the day it is a form of expression for somebody and that makes it art. Like literature, like painting, like writing, like film-making. Cheap zombie movie can be enjoyed in as many ways as expensive blockbuster form "easy" enjoyment to dissecting it to discover something about the Zeitgeist of the era it was created in. Why get upset about someone's way of enjoying art and sharing that? It is a forum for discussion after all.
Helm wrote:Enough with the easy insults and enough with the easy humour. I am not a kid, I am older than you in fact. I make Heavy Metal, I don't just collect it. I don't know about 'trying too hard' but perhaps you could start by trying a little to take other people's beliefs and positions as something else than a dull joke.
You are demeaning a subject with your apparent inability to 'take me seriously'. I don't particularily care if you can take me seriously or not, I'd just like to not hear about it all the time, if you can't. I've had serious discussions about Heavy Metal with a lot of people, both off line and on line. Some of them here in fact. So your certainty about how nobody would take 'living and breathing Heavy Metal' seriously is not only blatantly unfounded, it is also extremely insulting exactly because it rests on disregarding the discreete parts of reality that don't suit your argument.
How many more times do I need to be insulted by you?
Just because my opinion does not go hand in hand with yours does not mean that I am insulting you. I never said that you were a kid, but rather compared what you were saying to that of one. This topic is regarding Greeks in general so what I'm about to say is relevant. Maybe it's just a Greek thing? I know for certain that if I said, "I live and breathe Heavy Metal" while having a conversation with anyone I know, they would burst out laughing at me. It's not an insult, it's stating the obvious. Perhaps the social and geographical differences in where we live allow for such things to be said and topics to be discussed there, but where I'm from it would not be taken seriously. I'm not saying that you can't express yourself, however, just because I am able to proclaim that I'm a "Master Of Metal" or a "Metal God" does not mean that it's true.
bigfootkit wrote:"Your Steel Is Not True"
stormspell wrote:"I hate all my releases. I only listen to Korn and Limp Bizkit, don't you know..."
Jesus Christ. Listen, you have to take responsibility of what you say at some point. What you're effectively saying here in this thread over and over is "you're a joke, no offense." It isn't any less offensive because you postface it with "no offense" and it's even more insulting when I say "no, I really am not" and you just keep on going. If you have a less presumptuous and contemptuous mode of conversation you use with people, perhaps in real life, in fear that fists might start to interfere with faces if the 'jokes' become to much, I kindly ask you start using it, man. I cannot and would not use violence in any such situation but if it helps you keep your fluff cynicism in check to think that people you're talking to are actual human beings that might get upset if you keep shouting "you're a joke!" in their faces, then by all means.
I don't know with what type of metalheads you hang around with but most of the people into this sort of music I know would react to 'I live and breathe Heavy Metal' with either stoic stoneface, or affirmations of their own. Not just in Greece. Go ask Lord Weird Slough Feg how they feel about Heavy Metal, or While Heaven Wept, they're both American. Because if you listen to 20 year old HM and know lyrics by heart and perhaps have spent parts of a wayward youth in a few bands and are honest about yourself, you might find that indeed you breathe it a little and you live it a little. Or a lot.
I think the type of mentality you exhibit is in fact a minority in these circles. Intellectualization is another thing, I am aware that a lot of even die-hard metalheads are not open to intellectual discussion about it, but that's a different symptom of the times. As far as people having a honest, life-affecting relationship with this sort of music, I'd say most of them I've come to know, do and are not shy to share.
Realize it, finally, that when someone tells you 'my life is about this and that' whatever that is, I could say 'I live and breathe for cooking, man' and you reply 'you're joking, right?', the first time it could be taken as an exclamation of incredulity, I don't know, perhaps you live in a bubble and have not come in contact with passionate people before. But if you keep on doing it, it's just straight-up insulting.
There is a great divide in metal sub-culture that I have witnessed for many years. It boils down to this: Certain metalheads feel the need to ridicule their peers for the bands they like or don't like and say "You aren't TRUE enough!" I call this the Poseur Complex. Others will proselytize the Metal Gospel and claim "I am more metallic than thou!" This is the Ego Complex. Both of these statements are usually fallacies and both of them stem from personal insecurities. Isn't this a problem? Shouldn't metalheads be a brotherhood/sisterhood? A union? Shouldn't we all gather and brainstorm as to how metal can have the greatest effect on the culture and society as a whole, rather than tear itself apart from within by meaningless in-fighting?
I think it's the same with art, politics, religion, anything people feel passionate about. Look at religion for example. Shouldn't that be about brotherhood and working for the greater good instead of constant disagreement and open hostility?
Helm wrote:Jesus Christ. Listen, you have to take responsibility of what you say at some point. What you're effectively saying here in this thread over and over is "you're a joke, no offense." It isn't any less offensive because you postface it with "no offense" and it's even more insulting when I say "no, I really am not" and you just keep on going. If you have a less presumptuous and contemptuous mode of conversation you use with people, perhaps in real life, in fear that fists might start to interfere with faces if the 'jokes' become to much, I kindly ask you start using it, man. I cannot and would not use violence in any such situation but if it helps you keep your fluff cynicism in check to think that people you're talking to are actual human beings that might get upset if you keep shouting "you're a joke!" in their faces, then by all means.
I don't know with what type of metalheads you hang around with but most of the people into this sort of music I know would react to 'I live and breathe Heavy Metal' with either stoic stoneface, or affirmations of their own. Not just in Greece. Go ask Lord Weird Slough Feg how they feel about Heavy Metal, or While Heaven Wept, they're both American. Because if you listen to 20 year old HM and know lyrics by heart and perhaps have spent parts of a wayward youth in a few bands and are honest about yourself, you might find that indeed you breathe it a little and you live it a little. Or a lot.
I think the type of mentality you exhibit is in fact a minority in these circles. Intellectualization is another thing, I am aware that a lot of even die-hard metalheads are not open to intellectual discussion about it, but that's a different symptom of the times. As far as people having a honest, life-affecting relationship with this sort of music, I'd say most of them I've come to know, do and are not shy to share.
Realize it, finally, that when someone tells you 'my life is about this and that' whatever that is, I could say 'I live and breathe for cooking, man' and you reply 'you're joking, right?', the first time it could be taken as an exclamation of incredulity, I don't know, perhaps you live in a bubble and have not come in contact with passionate people before. But if you keep on doing it, it's just straight-up insulting.
When did I not take responsibility for my opinion? I tried to explain to you that my opinion was not made to be offensive, however, that's how I feel and if you feel that it is offensive, that's your problem. You can shout up and down outrageous statements like that of which I've already quoted, but that doesn’t mean that I'm going to believe you. I don’t think that I need to go into any further detail on what I think you are, because I can already foresee where this conversation is going. I do not believe that I am a minority in my opinion towards you or what you have to say because I have seen similar conversations regarding you in which you were involved on other forums.
Aside from that, when I was referencing people when stating that they would have the same reaction to the quote, I was not referencing "Metalheads" but rather everyday "normal" people. Canada is nothing like Greece in regards to the "real" Metal scene. Those that listen to what we deem "True Metal" are few and far between here. Yes, I have friends and know people that listen to some "real" Metal, but often they listen to a bunch of other stuff that I could care less about. They are not the "Metalhead" type by any stretch and visually neither am I.
Once again, I'm not saying that you aren’t entitled to do with Metal as you please or feel about it the way that you claim, but that doesn't mean that I don't have an opinion about it.
Last edited by Avenger on Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bigfootkit wrote:"Your Steel Is Not True"
stormspell wrote:"I hate all my releases. I only listen to Korn and Limp Bizkit, don't you know..."
“I am not. At all. I have them just as you, I'm no robot. The intellectual concerns that come after the emotions do not invalidate them, at least for me. I do not fear or feel threatened by discourse over the artifacts of culture and art that matter to me. In fact I think the best thing we can do for HM as listeners is to try to analyze it. I think it's a good thing to be strict and severe with the things I love.”
No there’s nothing wrong with discussing these things at all, of course not, I myself find these things MUCH more interesting than talking about what bullshit catalogue number something has or how many pressings there are of some CD…zzzzzz. What I have to disagree with and consequently react the way I do to is if I think you’re dismissing something I care about on unfounded grounds. I don’t understand your problem with LIEGE LORD for instance, what is insincere about them, where are the stupid lyrics, how are they to fault?
No it’s not about how much money is spent of course, and maybe I come at it with the wrong attitude since I easily start thinking of idiots who don’t buy anything and then go on complaining that music should be free, but there’s also the aspect that if something means a lot to you, you will sacrifice for it, and if you never feel that need or fire to hold an original pressing in your hands then you also have to accept you just don’t ‘understand’ why that is special and why those few riffs or one or two good songs are more than enough to make that item something very special. I’m not nor can I tell you to stop saying things about it but your logical approach cannot breach the emotional spell
As for Avenger, the only thing that seemingly ‘elevates’ him above the normal metal dullard is historic knowledge and a growing CD collection, though CD:s mean nothing to me, as they are pretty far from the original source; and yes this has to do with the ‘spiritual’ aspects of metal – or I could say occult even, to me it’s the same thing.
This habit of finding someone expressing deep emotions about any given matter ridiculous or childish is itself one of the FOREMOST tell-tale signs of an undeveloped mind – in that sense that such a person has a very poor contact with themselves, putting on a front, a shield, and often people don’t even realise they are doing so.
And no I don’t think all metalheads should be a big brotherhood, just because someone likes metal does not make them my friend or cancel their other flaws, and there is no ‘greater good’ metal should work towards.
Are you the tyrant, who cast them to the sea?
One day you'll be among the dead.
"I live and breathe metal" - can't you just understand that this has nothing to do with being "true" or "kvlt" or whatever, or having the biggest collection in the world, etc.?
I would say the same for myself - and it has to do with my personal beliefs, comprehension of the world around me and myself, not ego, metal stereotypes or whatever you wish to call it.
Avenger, here's how it is: When someone tells you you're being insulting, and all you have to offer 'well that's your problem', it is a matter of perspective. I ask then for other regulars to arbitrate: Is being repeatedly called a joke because you said you live specifically Heavy Metal, specifically in the Corroseum, what you'd consider an insult, or not? If many people post here and tell me that I'm just being too easily hurt, I'll take their advice and reconsider in private why I'm victimizing myself. If they tell me that they would, also, in a similar situation feel insulted, then I put it to you to publicly apologize and retract. If you're not man enough to do so, I will also settle with you just stopping commenting whenever you find me to be a 'joke', publicly. Keep your insults to yourself.
daniel, I realize you felt I was dismissing certain bands you might care about a lot. I personally do not dismiss art very easily, though I am often very skeptical of it. Satan's Host for example, for every great bit in the riffs or melodies, there's something aesthetic or lyrical or in the delivery which makes me skeptical. Liege Lord were a different example, though! I do not consider them insincere at all. I just find the actual music very boring, whereas most US metal enthusiasts find it godly. My example when I was talking about Liege Lord was just to illustrate that I felt there might be some people that say they love Liege Lord because there's peer pressure to do so, whereas in truth they don't. I didn't mean to imply that's all or most of their audience, but certainly, some, certainly in Greece, and there are other, even more 'debatable merit' bands that I could have used as examples, sure. Hell, I love 'Burn to my Touch' by them as well, there's certainly a few tracks on each record to love, but the overall adoration I find somewhat troubling. It's the same with the whole of US metal and some of its enthusiasts: they seem to be uncritical about faults. That's all I've been trying to express on this thread. I think even Ion Britton, who's been my counterpoint in the thread, would agree to that bare minimum presumption (not that I mean to speak in your place, tell me if I'm wrong).
about monetary sacrifice: I do agree spending money for what you love, if it reaches the artists and labels you care about, is indicative of respect. I've spent a lot of money - mainly as a teenager - on HM, and I am not certain at all much of it has gone to the right place. So I've decided nowadays when I buy records, I tend to consider where the money is going much, much more. This means I buy much less. I do not consider the 'abstract sacrifice' to be good enough, I do not consider myself a customer not a consumer. When I pay it's to patronize the artistry and the artist as directly as possible. I also send a lot of e-mails to artists I respect to tell them that their music has has a positive influence in my life, and a lot of good feelings have emerged from that, along with a few friendships. I think this counts also.
Perhaps a bit of a misunderstanding had occurred in the past when you had read that I am trying to assemble a perfect 100 vinyl collection of records that I love... these records I do not love because I downloaded them a week ago, I bought them as CD's (a brittle and unreliable, small sized and annoying medium I do not enjoy anymore) as a teenager and have stood the test of time for 10 years, most of them. I'm trying to assemble the list so I can re-buy them, you see, so I can spend more time with the process of playing and listening to them. You once called this attitude 'gay' of me, but it's much what you describe about the spirituality of HM.
About two - three riffs being enough: I give you that, I tend to not understand it, for me the music and lyrics and aesthetics... everything must be as packed as possible with awesomeness for it to be an enduring favorite. If Mercyful Fate could do it with 'Melissa' and Candlemass with 'Epicus...' then it's possible, you know? Why settle for less?
Helm wrote:It's the same with the whole of US metal and some of its enthusiasts: they seem to be uncritical about faults. That's all I've been trying to express on this thread. I think even Ion Britton, who's been my counterpoint in the thread, would agree to that bare minimum presumption (not that I mean to speak in your place, tell me if I'm wrong).
No, you're not wrong. It doesn't matter if you enjoy 95% or 5% of US metal that I do, it's indeed something that I have seen happening all these years, not only with US metal fans, but with fans of other different metal sub-genres as well. Blind devotion to anything related to a particular style/sub-genre is something I cannot understand at all.
On a sidenote, I'm not in the position to know exactly how each member reads and interprets everything that's being written on this forum and furthermore, in what way, good or bad, each one writes what he writes and I certainly do not consider myself some kind of unmistakable judge when it comes to these things, but I'm pretty sure that some discussions could run even more smoothly if certain phrases/words were avoided. Just my two cents.
Good against Evil, Evil sure to win
"It really didn't matter if they liked it or not, i was going to give it to them straight down their throats" -John Stewart
Helm wrote:Avenger, here's how it is: When someone tells you you're being insulting, and all you have to offer 'well that's your problem', it is a matter of perspective. I ask then for other regulars to arbitrate: Is being repeatedly called a joke because you said you live specifically Heavy Metal, specifically in the Corroseum, what you'd consider an insult, or not? If many people post here and tell me that I'm just being too easily hurt, I'll take their advice and reconsider in private why I'm victimizing myself. If they tell me that they would, also, in a similar situation feel insulted, then I put it to you to publicly apologize and retract. If you're not man enough to do so, I will also settle with you just stopping commenting whenever you find me to be a 'joke', publicly. Keep your insults to yourself.
I think you have a problem with people that just don't flat out agree with or praise your views. Yes, it is a matter of perspective, but my intention from the beginning was not to offend but rather speak my mind. As I have already pointed out, I think that claiming to "live and breathe Heavy Metal" is a cheesy cliché, but even putting that aside, is not honest in your case. Anyone that does truly "live and breathe Heavy Metal" would not go around self-proclaiming this, none the less over the internet. Another reason that daniel had already pointed out is because you have admitted in the past to have slagged bands (such as Liege Lord in this case) while only having ever downloaded the material. Having 100 gigs (or whatever amount it is) of solely MP3 content on your hard drive only goes to prove this further. Do you attend gigs every night? Do you have a huge collection of albums in hard copy form? Do I need to go any further? I'm in no way comparing you to myself when making such a statement, as I’m not the one that made the original claim, but these are some of many reasons that I believe this to be ridiculous.
I think that your claim of what I'm saying being deemed offensive is really just an attempt on your behalf to have people side with you. If I exercised the same mentality, I would have thrown a fit over daniels opinions of myself. I was called a "dullard", he stated CD's to be useless and claimed that I have an "undeveloped mind" among other things. But guess what? I could really care less. That's his opinion and he is entitled to it. What the two of us don't agree with on one subject most likely won't affect the next thread down the road where we may agree or praise similar bands or share MP3's. It was mentioned a few posts earlier that this attitude is perhaps ego driven, which I agree with and quite frankly don't see a need for. Life is too short to always be serious about everything and have a need to constantly be proving ones self.
Lastly, whether or not a majority sides with you on they’re personal perspective of my posts, does not matter. I will never apologize for having an opinion and do not owe you anything for calling out what I see as fake. This is an internet forum. Arguments will take place and opinions spoken. Being sensitive won’t change that.
bigfootkit wrote:"Your Steel Is Not True"
stormspell wrote:"I hate all my releases. I only listen to Korn and Limp Bizkit, don't you know..."
