80s decade utopia

[Black Axe]

Music is creativity. And just like a lot of modern art/paintings, it might be creative, but that doesn't mean it's any good. Don't confuse creativity with quality.

[Shiremen]

Actually, maybe someone here can help me define a thing.

Two days ago, me and a friend were watching TV. It was some kind of biography about a Russian composer. And while the TV showed a classical orchestra playing his symphony, my friend said: "everyone in that orchestra is a master". And I said: "Erm, yeah maybe they are master at their instruments, but they sure ain't masters of writing music. What they are doing is actually reading notes from a piece of paper. They haven't created anything, they are just playing what someone is telling them to play. I prefer listening to someone's creativity much more than these non-identifiable master players who is actually doing covers."

What's wrong with this picture? I can't figure it out

[GJ]

Most of these preformers are hopefully creative (and true) in what they do. Also, aren't playing your own songs in some ways pretty much the same as making a cover versions? Is writing a stupid song and preforming it badly in any sense truer than prefoming a sensitive and/or bold interpretation of another person's work? Is working within the confinements of an orchestra of fifty individuals less creative than preforming on top (or alone) as a soloist? Probably a matter of personality. Some are leaders, some are followers. Some are outspoken, others are bound to look inwards and keep things for themselves. Neither are, because of this, truer than the other.

[Shiremen]

And heavy metal is played by musicians for fans, not by and for races or genders. There are quite a few racist heavy metal fans. But you can usually notice, and thus ignore these people

Ok. But metal doesn't appeal to women or non-whites. And I wonder why. And metal is played by white musicians for white fans, so your statement that its's played by musicians for fans isn't true. Of course there are black/asian/female musicians and fans, but that's an exception.[/quote]

[Black Axe]

Besides, that russian composer could never play the entire symphony himself. And assuming he's dead, this orchestra wants to keep his music alive. If he's been dead a long time, his music probably wasn't recorded when he was around. So unless they're the 10000th orchestra playing this the exact same way, there is something to be said for their effort.

[Black Axe]

And heavy metal is played by musicians for fans, not by and for races or genders. There are quite a few racist heavy metal fans. But you can usually notice, and thus ignore these people

Ok. But metal doesn't appeal to women or non-whites. And I wonder why. And metal is played by white musicians for white fans, so your statement that its's played by musicians for fans isn't true. Of course there are black/asian/female musicians and fans, but that's an exception.

Metal does appeal to womean and non-whites, their (musical)heritage just doesn't lead them to heavy metal that often.

[Shiremen]

Ok. I just don't understand the attitude of never creating any music of your own. Where is the joy of playing music from a piece of paper? Specially if you know that it has been played 786.876 times before. And that the whole aim is to play it perfectly, exactly as someone else has told you to play it. Boooring. And this music is supposed to be the "high-class-culture-of-mankind"? Pffff I say.

[Helm]

Metal has a strange characteristic, and that is that it's trying to be open-minded (express lyrics & images that popular culture doesn't) and conservative (true metal bla bla, saxophones isn't Heavy etc.) AT THE SAME TIME! That's what makes HM interesting to me.

The prime characteristic of HM is its romanticism. It's secondary (and related) characteristic is strong polarities that communicate, seeming contradictions. The Maiden is made of Iron, the Sabbath is Black and the Liege is... wait, that doesn't work.

You will find strong contradictions and juxtapositions on any good HM record. From very blatant ones like how can such a positive lyrical message be conveyed by such savage music, to more nuanced ones like how music so preoccupied with death and dying seems to serve a higher ethos. Also lowbrow shit like how dudes decked out in leathers and chains are total virgins and how they'd rather sit home and read Scott Orson Card than go out and 'party'...

The spirit of Heavy Metal resides in adolescence. That time in life where you are no longer a child and you can see to adulthood but you're not recognised as one yet. A brilliant, introverted child is in his bedroom with his guitar and he's writing a 20 minute song about how he has defeated death. His mom interrupts him to tell him dinner is ready. Killing death will have to wait until the evening. Heavy Metal comes from that place. Anyone into it will forever remain a child in some ways. But in others he must grow up!

But Helm, you forgot something. Metal is music played by white males for an audience of white males, and still we are not racists! In 26 years of listening to HM, I can't remember a single HM fan I've met who has had rasistic views.

I've met a few racist metalheads and I know quite a lot exist. Perhaps you're subconsciously steering away from such company. There's a whole section of propaganda music called National Socialist Black Metal, for example. A lot of the death metal people aren't very humanist either, and a small but vocal minority of the TRVE METAL brigade seems to hate this race or another. You might never know until you ask outright.

HM is nowadays played all over the world and the numbers of female musicians are rising. I feel safe in saying there is nothing in HM that can only appeal to males. Whether it will appeal to more women in the future is a matter of social reform and what the woman's role in society progresses towards being. There is nothing fundamentally lacking in a woman that wants to feel and understand Heavy Metal. I feel strange having to state something so blatant.


About your issue with people who perform music rather than write it, they certainly put a lot of themselves into expressing their parts and at the best of times they make it theirs as much as they were of the composers. Your problem with understanding this might stem from whether or not you have played an instrument for some time in your life. If you haven't, it's easy to arrive to such opinions that performing music is just mechanistic. It's not, it takes a lot of soul for someone to play something brilliantly and beautifully, even if they have not written it themselves.

That being said, I am also more interested in music performed by its composers. This is because I do not really care so much for artistic perfection as I care for the heavy metal contradictions, again. I want to listen to weird, brilliant music, by weird, selectively-brilliant music players. I don't want it to be accomplished on all fronts, I want to see the humanity creep in. Most HM musicians, even top ones, really aren't as accomplished as a real orchestral musician will ever be and that's because simply they have lives outside of playing their instruments, whereas professional orchestral players practise varying from a lot to constantly. I want to listen to music made by people with full, interesting lives, when I listen to Heavy Metal, not the results of someone's monomania.

[Shiremen]

Strange that you want to run away from the fact that Heavy Metal is played by white males for a white male audience . Of course there are exceptions, I am just saying that a VAST majority are whites. For example, in two minutes, name 20 HM bands that are none-white. And after that, name 20 HM bands that are all female. And then name 20 bands with all-whites. And 20 bands with male only. Get my point?

I am not saying it's a bad thing or a good thing, I am just stating a fact.

I played bass for 10 years and released a CD with my band back in 1994. So I know what it means to perform music. And I know that it can be mechanistic, if you feel like playing that way. But to believe in what you are expressing, and expressing this to someone else, that's a whole different thing than this robotic drone symphonies. Blergh

[Helm]

Yeah I didn't mean to imply that HM isn't made mostly by white young adults in western countries, and usually of a middle class & healthy income. What I wanted to express was that the reasons for this are in my opinion cultural and economic and not because HM inherently can only appeal to this archetype of the disaffected suburban youth. Furthermore I feel just outlining that there aren't many women or non-whites in HM and leaving it at that usually serves to entrench the stereotype.

I do contest that the material is intended for a white male audience though, HM is intended for whomever needs and desires it, I think the vast majority of HM musicians, be them true or untrue, would agree. I dunno, when you wrote the material for you cd, were you keeping in mind some specific stereotype of listener? When I write my music I think about expressing what I need to express and then when it's done the rest will take care of itself.

[MEXDefenderOfSteel]

Helm, finally i had the time to read that essay of yours, i like it, and many of the the things you are pointing out, i agree with them....specially about America´s society, im not sure if you have been there, but well as im outsider that actually have gone there n spoke many times with people that live in the U.S. (lets use the word "americans" for people that live in the Sates right) and you can totally feel that vibe that u described so well in your words...sad but true...

and about the "white males playing for white audiences" although i dont like the sound of that, i think that is not meant t happen on purpose (although im aware it happens because of today´s western culture), i would prefer that statement to be changed "real-musicians/metalheads playing for people that also love the music" next video says it all the ones Born to rock! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SByu31lJzNA

[voidghast]

I can't think of much to comment as usual because so many great points have already been made. I'm not too big on reading through pages of threads unless they are as exciting and as mentally stimulating as this one. Helm's essay was top notch and it seems to have struck a (power)chord with most of us. I think about the spirit of heavy metal and it's role in my life often..maybe more than I should, but I am not so good at writing an essay. I tend to ramble. As far as the original subject of the thread is concerned: When I think about the 80's and heavy metal I realize that most of it is a fantasy. I acknowledge the fact that mediocre albums from clone bands can possess a certain charm, coming from the 80's and perhaps being very obscure and containing a certain youthful energy. The charm usually wears thin unless of course the album is an all around, well crafted, well written affair in it's entirety. For that reason I would much rather buy and listen to "Melissa" or "No Place Like Home" because they are more than just charming to me. They are albums I could listen to over and over and over again for years to come and never tire of. They don't have the rare/cult factor going for them but my passion for heavy metal has nothing to do with collecting vinyl. It has to do with my personal experience with music..albums before artists. Of course it's different for everybody and for those who lived in the 80's and have nostalgic memories attached to what I might deem 'mediocre albums from clone bands' I mean no offense. I suppose I think of this life as being quite short and I don't feel the need to spend it listening to one or two good songs on an overall dull album. Not to say that everything obscure is dull..no fucking way. This site has opened my ears to some truly remarkable albums and far more remarkable singles/demos. But in thinking of the giant mass of under-the-radar heavy metal bands from 1980-1989, there are certainly legions more dull throwaway recordings than there are masterpieces to these ears.

[The Erlking]

For example, in two minutes, name 20 HM bands that are none-white.

Well I can name 20 HM bands from Japan only in one minute and that's just one country from the whole asia. Or do they count as white?

I don't know, it seems weird if a scene so huge is just an exception.. And what about Latin America?

[Shiremen]

Ok. Name 20 non-white bands that have had a real IMPACT and been a real INFLUENCE for hundreds of bands. Sepultura is the only one I can think of at the moment.

Japan has for the last 50 years been considered a "western society", so they don't count as non-white. What do you mean by a "scene so huge"? What bands have been influenced by that scene you mean? I mean for example, you can trace the Scandinavian influence in so many bands. Or the German. Or American. But Japanese?

[Shiremen]

intended for a white male audience though, HM is intended for whomever needs and desires it, I think the vast majority of HM musicians, be them true or untrue, would agree. I dunno, when you wrote the material for you cd, were you keeping in mind some specific stereotype of listener?

Of course I didn't write music for a white audience. I just wrote whatever popped up from inside. I am not saying HM is intented for white male persons, I am saying that the audience is mostly white males. That's simply how it is. I would be extremely surprised if Manowars next concert would be played in Harlem in front of 12,786 persons from the black community. That just wont happen.